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Within the last 6 weeks I purchased a nice 1994 940 turbo sedan form an ebay related deal. I am new to Volvos and so far I really dig this car. The problem is, so far the seller has yet to produce a clear title. I have purchased a few cars through ebay before and have been very happy with the results, but with this car I contacted the seller after his auction expired (with no bidders) and worked a deal for $2200. I explicitly asked him if he had a clear title and he replied that he did. But here is where the fun starts, after taking delivery on the car, as it turns out he owes about $6100 on this car and his bank obviously will not release the title. So far I give the seller the benefit of the doubt. It is obvious that the seller in no mental giant and perhaps he does not know what a clear title means. He later said that he was under the impression that be could continue to make the payments and there would be no problem. Perhaps he is mentally impaired or mentally unstable to some degree. I honestly do not think that he did this in a malicious manner. Anyway to date I have about $3000 wrapped up in this car with the purchase price, transport cost, and some repair. So what does one do now? I am driving this car around daily with my insurance coverage and his out of state plate on it. His bank wont budge, my money is long since gone, and it seams to be a stalemate. Do I just take a loss and part this perfectly running car out? Is there any resale value in parts on these cars? The seller is a young person I assume of no finacial means, so reversing the deal does not appear to be an option. Any advise is greatly appreciated.
derek
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I've bought 2 cars on E-bay, and lucked out on both of them. BUT -- I knew full well I was rolling the dice that the seller did own the car.
If I ever buy another car off E-bay (or from anybody else, for that matter), I won't even begin discussing price (or in the case of E-bay, make a bid), until I SEE a clear title. If they refuse to show it to me, or don't have one, adios amigo.
REMEMBER ---- THERE'S ALWAYS ANOTHER CAR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Disclaimer: Criticism follows. Stop reading now if you can't take it.
I honestly don't know how you took delivery of the car without either having the title first or knowing what bank held the title and that you would be paying them off. If the seller said the car was his and you believed him (why shouldn't you, it would be my way too), then why did you turn over your money without first securing the title? Did you even see the car first? I am not quite sure why so much money is owed on that car (6000 if I remember right?), it is not worth anything near that. Here is some advice if you want to go on.
Step 1. Park the car and cancel your insurance on it. Call the bank and tell them they can come pick it up or offer you a deal to clean up the mess. Your only bit of leverage with them is that they should know that they will loose money on this car no matter what and it may just be simpler to deal with you rather than to hire somebody to bring the car back from another state and then to try and sell it all over again. You may be out all of your money, don't blame anybody but yourslef.
Step 2. Sue the seller. If the guy is in the military, get hold of his CO and let him know what is going on. What a GI does on his off hours is regulated by the ucmj and stiffing people on high dollar purchases will not sit well with his superiors. You might be able to secure a lein on his pay. As for him not being a mental giant, this doesn't show too well in your favor either. Maybe he pulled a fast one on you.
--
97 S90 with 180K miles still going strong
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Evil,
your criticism (if merited) is welcome and appreciated. In hind sight, I got too comfortable with these long distance transactions and put too much faith in the general public. I should have requested the title first, maybe a least a faxed copy.
I shall take your advise, park the car and call the bank (again). Do you think that daily storage fees apply? any way I can leverage my position the better. I agree that a $6K loan on a 940 is wacked.
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Glad you didn't take it too personally. From my perspective, I would not get too cutesy with the bank by threatening to park it somewhere where it will get towed or asking them for storage charges. You have minimal leverage at this point. Park it at your house or apt. and tell them where it is. If you don't have insurance on it, with his plates it is not your concern. Hell, park it in the street. The bank understands that at this point, they are on the loosing end and will do something if they have any common sense. But then again, what bank would loan that much money on a 11 year old vehicle? LTV is usually 80% and that car is not worth anything close to 8k wholesale.
Again, go after the seller, he is the person screwing both you and the bank at this point.
Bob
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97 S90 with 180K miles still going strong
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You have a real legal problem here...you technically don't own the car. I would try to convince him (with threats of legal and/or criminal action) to go get a loan , pay off your car loan and send you the title.
Your insurance company will freak out when they learn of this (like if you have an accident).
What he has effectively done, is to sell you a car he doesn't own (the bank owns it). This is a crime. If he balks, I would contact the District Atty in his state /city.....You must convince him that you will go "Balls to the Wall" on this issue.
Good Luck,
CC
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thanks for the input Chris, this is a real problem. I have threatend him with legal action and have very much tried to motivate hime to clear this up. I have even said that I will start parking in handicap spots in order to rack up $250 tickets in his name. He is very apologetic and sincere, but the issue still remains.
Here is another varible, the seller is a soldier at Tinker AFB and he has no finanical means to fix this. Be related to a 5 star in Vietnam, I have some compasion for the military.
As of last night I have quit driving this car and have stored it in a remote place. I will once again attempt to deal with the bank today.
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I used to be an Army Inspector General(IG). While the AF system is somewhat different, I suggest that you contact the IG at the base he's stationed at. They might be willing to act as an intermediary of sorts to resolve this. I found that most soldiers will do the right thing for the IG (esp. if the IG keeps the matter confidential).
I would not sympathize too much. If the airman is honorable, he will make arrangements with you to return all (or as much as possible) of the $ he de facto scammed you of. He might not be able to return all of it but he can demonstrate his contrition (and honor) with a good faith effort at restitution. If he is not willing to do that, he should be reported to his command ASAP because he is giving the military a bad name and will make it harder for his law abiding peers when they try to conduct business off base.
Good luck!
Dave
Active Duty LTC, Army
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Dear Derek,
Good a.m. and may this find you well. The fact that the seller is active service Military, may help to resolve this. The Bank may take that into consideration.
You can also contact his commanding officer, and seek that gentleman's or gentlelady's help. His unit may have a fund, to help its Members, who get into financial binds.
You can call the base switchboard, and ask to speak to the seller. They won't give you his number, but they should connect you to his unit's clerk. Explain that you need to speak with the unit's commanding officer, regarding a financial obligation owed by a unit member, whose neglect of it may involve criminal wrong-doing. Do not mention the seller's name, until you're speaking with the CO. I think you'll get connected to the CO, or get a prompt call back.
If the seller is told by his CO to resolve this matter promptly, that can only help. If the CO can be moved to call the Bank, and ask them to do what they can, that, too, can only help.
You might want to give a day or two for this to unfold. Then, when you pursue your contacts with the Bank, they may be more willing to do a deal with you.
You're quite right not to drive the car. If a repo man/woman turns up, explain that you're trying to negotiate with the Bank, and show him/her some of the e-mails. I think some time will pass, before the Bank hires a repo man, especially if interstate transportation is involved.
This is a 10-year-old car. How the bank made a $6,000 loan on it, is beyond me.
Yours faithfully,
spook
p.s. I understand "5 star" to means a General of the Army. I had thought there had been none such, since World War II. Mea culpa.
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spook,
as always your advice and input is outstanding. You seam to put a great deal of thought into everything. That is a good point about contacting his CO. I own a couple of rental houses up in Cheyenne. It is well known amongst home owners, the best renters are Warren AFB personnel. If you have any problems with renters, the CO's will always get it worked out.
I tried to call the bank again this morning - voice mail.
The 5 star the I was refering to is General William Westmoreland
cheers,
Derek Westmoreland
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thanks for the input folks. This whole transaction was well documented in email threads and I have sent these emails threads to the bank in efforts to clear this up. The bank has showed little interest in even addressing this whole thing. I wish that they would just make a move one way or the other. The seller has totally pleaded ignorance and assumes all resposibilty, but does not have any money to back it up.
Let this be a lesson to us all about buying long distance.
BTW, I really love this 940 Turbo. My twin turbo audi has sat in the garage ever since the Volvo showed up.
thx,
derek
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I think that I would have asked that his title be delivered with the car,
no title, no payment. I guess "title unseen" is not quite as bad as
"sight unseen", but I think I would be very leery if he could not produce it
leery enough to keep my money in my pocket.
--
George Downs Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!
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Dear derek,
Good p.m. Glad you've documented everything and have contacted the Bank. You might want to ask your State's Department of Motor Vehicles, if they will grant a temporary tag. Show them that you've contacted the Bank, as proof of your good intent. They may have a way to legalize your use of the car, pending your obtaining the title.
If you want to get the Bank to make a decision, send a letter to the Bank's CEO, by certified mail - return receipt requested - setting forth the problem, as clearly as you can, and enclosing copies of the e-mails. As the CEO to direct his/her subordinates, to resolve this matter, by contacting you, so that a deal can be done.
I think it may safely be inferred, from the Bank's "lack of interest", that you won't have to offer them much, to get them to turn over the title to you.
It seems that this matter is of little importance to them. That is to your advantage.
Yours faithfully,
spook
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Dear Derek,
Good p.m. and may this find you well. I'm not a lawyer. Even so, it seems to me that you're in legal peril: the Bank could allege that you conspired with the seller, to defraud the Bank. Indeed,if you're in a different state than the seller, you might be charged with interstate transportation of stolen property. Parting out the car is not only not a solution, it incriminates you. Parting-out the car suggests you're knowingly trying to dispose of property, that you don't own.
The first thing to do - if you've not already done so - is to contact the Bank, which owns the car. That will likely immunize you against a charge of receiving stolen property. You can/should let them know, that you bought the car in good faith from the seller, not knowing that he did not own it, because he had not finished paying for it. Because cars are sold, sight unseen, on e-Bay - and are sold on the assumption that the seller has and will deliver the title, upon being paid - your story is completely credible. Calling the Bank will add to your credibility.
By taking good care of the car (the bank's property), you have done the bank a favor. You and the bank have a joint grievance against the seller.
The Bank can, if it wishes, send someone to collect the car from you. I doubt they will, especially if you're some distance from them. By the time they cover the transport costs, lawyers' fees, re-sale expenses, etc., there will be little left.
Given the recovery costs, you might be able to get title to the car, by asking the Bank, what they want to release the title to you. They might only want $1-2,000 (the amount they'll get, after they re-possess the car and sell it). The car will cost you more than you had thought, but you'll have the title, and be free of potential criminal charges.
The Bank may, or may not, choose to pursue their weak-minded client. That's their decision. You can - and should - offer to help them do that. You don't owe the seller anything. He's put you in legal peril.
In short, as one Volvo fan to another, try to do a deal with the Bank. They have a lot of leverage, but it will cost them plenty to use it. You don't have much leverage, but can maximize it, by dealing with the Bank in the most straightforward way possible, and by offering to help them pursue their trouble-making customer.
If the Bank's officials are friendly, you can do a deal (be sure to get everything - and I mean absolutely everything - in writing). If you're not good at writing letters, to record discussions you have with Bank officials, get someone to write the letters for you. Nothing you say on the telephone has any force, unless it is put in writing (even a e-mail, is better than nothing, so long as you print-out the e-mail [so it can't be "lost"]).
If the Bank's officials are hostile to you, hire a lawyer. Pronto.
Let us know, how it turns out.
Hope this helps.
Yours faithfully,
spook
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Hurry up and get a lawyer. You may be out $3000 AND a car. The car is not yours, it still belongs to the bank and they could reposess it at any time. If you part it out, you could be sued by the bank.
Klaus
--
98 V70Rawd(101Kmi), 95 854T(85K mi), 75 164E(173K mi)
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>>>>>> Hurry up and get a lawyer. You may be out $3000 AND a car. The car is not yours, it still belongs to the bank and they could reposess it at any time. If you part it out, you could be sued by the bank.
Klaus >>>>>>>
Ditto. I doubt that he is still making payments, so the repo man may soon be coming your way to take the car that is still legally the banks.
You could always sue the seller, possibly in small claims court, but at this time it would be best to talk to an attorney.
Will the bank tell you if the previous owner is still making payments? The best that you can hope for at this point is that the previous owner is still making payments and the bank releases the title after a few years, once it's paid off. Seriously though, as much as you love the car, your best bet financially speaking would be to try to back out of the deal, but talk to an attorney first.
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So what's the lesson here? I recently purchased a Volvo under similar circumstances. The seller shipped the car and fedexed the title, so the deal went smoothly. There but for the grace of God...
So how do you transact a deal when purchasing a car out of state and protect yourself from being stuck? I had thought about using an escrow service, but now many of the "escrow services" are themselves scams.
Would purchasing with a credit card via PayPal offer protection for the buyer?
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Dear rwreagan,
Good p.m. I've bought two cars, from out-of-state sellers, via e-bay. I took the risk that each seller had the title, and would render it when paid. Both sellers were auto wholesalers, with positive feedback. I would not buy a car from a private party in another state.
In some situations, the help of local law enforcement may be enlisted. A friend sent a rifle to a gunsmith in Washington State. Weeks passed. Calls went unreturned. The friend decided that he just wanted his rifle returned, whether or not the work had been done.
To help this friend, I called the local sheriff's department, and spoke with a Deputy, who noted the details. A week or so later, my friend received his rifle, still in the box, in which he had sent it to the gunsmith.
When my friend called the Sheriff's Deputy, to thank him, he found out that the Deputy had gone to the gunsmith's house, and told him to hand over the rifle, or that he would be arrested for theft. The gunsmith handed over the rifle to the Deputy.
In America's many small towns, local peace officers know just about everyone. Most peace officers cut no slack to cheats, crooks, etc., and will do what they can to help the "good guy". This is an example of that. My friend wrote a letter to the Sheriff, commending the Deputy for taking the time, to help someone clear on the other side of the continent. The Deputy's going out of his way to uphold the Rule of Law is something, for which all of us, should be grateful.
By contrast, I have found Paypal to be utterly useless, once a transaction goes awry. It is impossible to find intelligent life there. I presume there must be some.
Yours faithfully,
spook
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I've never dealt with PayPal except to send and receive payments, so I haven't had the experience you refer to. But my point would be that, if I used a MasterCard to pay via PayPal, then wouldn't MasterCard make me whole if they failed to send me a car and clear title? I thought that was one of the advantages of purchasing online with a card instead of check.
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Dear rwreagan,
Good p.m. I, too, have never used Paypal, except to send or to receive money. I have found Paypal to be useless, when a seller does not ship any goods, or the wrong items. The Paypal claim filing deadline - within 30 days of the transaction - is simply too short. Further, if a seller is non-cooperative, Paypal is hamstrung. I have yet to find intelligent life there.
If you use your credit card via Paypal, and the Seller reneges, I believe Paypal is between you and the seller, as Paypal is the payment agent. Thus, Paypal will say that they transferred the money to the seller, per your instructions, and they expect to be paid by your credit card company. You may persuade your credit card issuer to make you whole. They will withdraw the money from Paypal's account. Paypal likely won't bother to pursue the cheater. They'll simply cut you off. If you have an account with them, they'll seize the contents.
Yours faithfully,
spook
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