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I have had my poor XC go through some trauma recently, of most impact was the ETM being fitted with the gasket bent over in one corner which was causing some serious idling and running issues. It was getting P2097 (too rich) codes, and once I fixed the gasket I started getting P0171 (too lean) codes, which made sense in a way? Stopped the vacuum leak and the mixture codes crossed over? So I thought things will even out? I even did what I thought should reset the fuel trim, disconnecting the battery for half an hour and pushing the brake pedal to deplete any residual volts in the system. Sadly things haven't improved, the idle is rough and I'm getting P0171 code with the long term fuel trim at 23%. Something still ain't right. I can't find a vacuum leak, the MAF sensor is less than 12mths old, fuel pump is not very old, and since the codes have crossed from too rich to too lean I can't see the fuel pressure being the root issue? The PCV is all clear and there is no sign of crankcase pressurisation from the dipstick after a good drive. Can't see or smell any fuel leaks around the injectors when cold, and once again the changing of the fault codes when the gasket was fixed suggests the injectors probably are not the constant fault? Could it be the pre-cat O2 sensor? It looks to be the original and the car is quite senior in mileage. I replaced the rear one as part of my ass chasing before finding and fixing the folded ETM gasket. My theory is that the pre-cat sensor is setting incorrect mixture, and the post-cat is detecting the error? I declare myself a Volvo student and hope for some good advice.
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Jorgan - Aussie -
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Your front O2 sensor could well be ruined from the rich condition you had earlier.
You can take it out and test it by mounting it in a vise and using a propane torch to heat it up. You should be able to find instructions on how to do that on this board or another. Your OBD-II scanner might give you a readout of the sensor values as well which could help you determine if it's getting tired. If your mileage is up over 100k miles and you're pretty sure it's original it's probably time for a new one anyway.
Before replacing your O2 sensor though, you really need to make sure your fuel mixture is in top condition.
Be SURE all vac/PCV leaks are fixed. Butane is a good way to check. A smoke machine is better.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/081547.html
Reset your long-term fuel trim by following this article:
http://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21123&start=0
Clean the carbon from your intake with a water treatment and seafoam treatment.
Then take if for a nice long hot run to move oil through every passageway and spin those valves.
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1998 V70 AWD->FWD Turbo 200k+
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Thanks very much, I'll probably go ahead and change the pre-cat O2 sensor. I don't have great confidence that will fix it, but continues the process of elimination. I will also do another search for air leakage, and maybe even find a fuel pressure gauge to check the rail pressure, and try a fuel filter change first. I have followed the computer reset procedure you linked, the only problem is I can't be sure it actually went to zero as my scanner won't give me anything until a fault code comes up, and that happens once the fuel mixture is out of limits again. Thanks, and I'll let you know how things pan out.
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Jorgan - Aussie -
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Don't be too quick to jump on a new O2 sensor. If you don't fix the rich condition first you will just ruin the new one too. It won't last long if you have an air leak and it will have been $150 wasted.
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1998 V70 AWD->FWD Turbo 200k+
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$150!!! I'd love to get one that cheap! :)
You are very lucky to live in the US when it comes to car parts.
But your advice is good, I'll go leak hunting yet again.
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Jorgan - Aussie -
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All of us that live in the New World are Americans. It is just that the United Statians stole the term American for their own use.
I would love to visit Kiwi land and then take the 4 hour flight and see a small part of Aussie land. It is just the flight from here to there is too long in coach class and too expensive in First class.
When I win the Lotto...
Klaus
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Two great Volvos, a 1967 220 and a 1998 V70R
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Klaus, Having done it the best way to do it is to take about 3 days to get down and back from St. Louis (so same for you up there in the twin cities..) first day LA, second day Honolulu, third day Auckland.
That lowers flight time to reasonable amounts. Honolulu to Auckland is about 9 hours, LA to Auckland is 13. The only nice thing about the LA flight is its a 'red eye' so if you can sleep on airplanes you get to sleep through.
But its one of the most beautiful places I've ever been, and I didn't get to see half of it! I should have taken much more time off... You might have to take a month off just to see it all, then you'll have to work again because things are expensive down under...
Or you could take a cruise down there and a cruise back... It'd only run you about 3-4k and a month each way!
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ha ha! Sorry, I know Canadians are sensitive to being called Americans! Not as bad as we Aussies hate being called New Zealanders though. :-)
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Jorgan - Aussie -
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I hadn't actually seen it as insulting in any way I just wanted to make sure you knew that I don't have any firsthand knowledge of the US parts market (other than all these discount parts places ship for free within the US and charge me a bundle for shipping... anyway)
I certainly hadn't meant to insinuate I'm better than my fellow New World-ers :)
I like to think of us as cousins - families with related/sibling parents. Not the same but not too different either :) That goes double for the Atlantic Canada - New England States relationship.
And boy Klaus I think everyone in 'America' would love to visit NZ someday....
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1998 V70 AWD->FWD Turbo 200k+
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Well, my various Canadian/US friends :), I have got a new pre-cat O2 sensor. I'm going to fit it tomorrow and hope for the best. I think it will not change anything, but it's my best guess. If it doesn't work I'm going to look at the injectors, maybe get new O'rings and clean them out.
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Jorgan - Aussie -
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Fitted the sensor, fairly easy job unless you have arms like Popeye. I did it from underneath, and zip tied the new sensor plug to the old sensor, then pulled the new plug up using the old sensors harness.
I reset the ECU, and so far it seems a fair bit better. Fingers crossed, and I'm not calling it a success until I see the results of a weeks driving.
I fit doesn't resolve the problem I'll tidy up the injectors and put new O-rings on them, might do it any case.
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Jorgan - Aussie -
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unsurprisingly, the O2 sensor did not fix the fault. The idle does sustain itself better, but the P0171 cde returns and fuel usage is still high.
Have ordered new injector seals, maybe one the injectors is dribbling. Also ordered a fuel filter. This Volvo is not rewarding me for my efforts, and may find itself being driven by another, less caring, owner very soon.
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Jorgan - Aussie -
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Have you checked the exhaust side for leaks?
But, before you throw even more money into the parts, take it for a smoke test. They can officially rule out air leaks both, in and out, that you may not be able to see.
If you've been buying all your parts from the dealer, they might cut you a break on the service. Call them and call an Indy (that at least works with european cars) to check prices down under. Last I heard it shouldn't be over $200 for the test, but then again I'm up here on the top of the world...
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I agree - you definitely need a smoke test on both sides of the engine.
You can build yourself a smoke tester pretty easily :
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/081547.html
If you don't find any problems there then I would suggest you find a mechanic who is good with an oscilloscope.
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1998 V70 AWD->FWD Turbo 200k+
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If you do this: 5PSI MAX
if you over pressurize these lines they will blow and you'll be replacing vacuum lines that may or may not have been responsible...
and connect AFTER the MAF not at the air box. No need to risk destroying that.
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Both suggestions are spot on. I'm sorry I didn't provide more guidance in the original post.
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1998 V70 AWD->FWD Turbo 200k+
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Thanks Gents, and that may be a good move. I did find a leak earlier in this saga, being a vacuum leak at the folded over ETM gasket. Fixing that reversed my codes from too lean to too rich, so from that resullt, and other checks I think the intake side is probably leak free. I have found air leaks on other cars simply by flexing air hoses and joints, and that's generally where they occur in my experience. The exhaust seems fine, I've been under the car with engine running (on ramps) and no hint of noise from leaks, but that's not definitive I guess.
The next step is the injector seals and fuel filter, which is cheap and easy, and good maintenance besides. I'd like to check the fuel rail pressure first if I can get a gage. I'll give that a shot and heed your advice. I'm hoping to get those parts in a few days before I go away for 5 weeks with work. The good thing is my '88 BMW is going strong as a reserve car.
The irritation is I don't have lot of spare time, or a lot of money to pay $70 an hour labour for people who seem to do marginally better experimentation. I get satisfaction from fixing it myself, and I've found on previous cars that once you learn a car and know it you are much better off. The 740 I had was a similar experience, 'experts' replacing fuel pumps, ECU, Idle valve, plugs etc for what turned out to be a radio suppression relay with cracked solder joints. Cost me thousands over a year, then on this site I got the relay advice, and had the car fixed for good in 10 minutes. The BMW was running badly, and I got told the idle control valve or MAF sensor were shot, I pulled the plastic air pipe out and found it had a 3 inch split in the concertina section underneath. Guess what fixed that?
Australian society supports the mediocre, and competition and service as Americans/Canadians know is very thin on the ground, but we get by I suppose.
Humour me with my rambling and drivel as I stagger towards the conclusion, and maybe the next poor bastard will be able to fish out some useful information in future. I have some used parts for sale too :-)
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Jorgan - Aussie -
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I love rambling and ranting, I do it all the time.
When you get your parts, check FCPGroton.com. You didn't say what you paid for your O2 sensor, but one from them will run you $240 AUD, so I don't know whether you would save anything or not. Shocks and Struts would be just under $700 AUD shipped, and those guys are heavy (truth be told, about 200 of that cost is shipping...). Hopefully that will save you a few dollars.
If you get a gauge and check the rail pressure, that will help. Depending on if you have Bosch or Denso your fuel should be 380 or 300 KPa respectively.
If you have the time/tools to do the DIY smoke go for it. Have you put a vacuum gauge to the tree and gotten a reading off it?
Finally, I don't recall what's the status with your PCV system? Do you know when it was last cleaned/replaced. I wonder if maybe you have a loose/split hose down there, where its unlikely to hear or really suck in, but it is annoying as all get out... Pull off the hose that is attached to the top of your engine, start the car and try to verify some vacuum is coming through the curved hose. Take a piece of light weight paper (tissue paper works well) and hang a corner across the opening. It should bend in, but i can't remember how A hole will still let the system vent so you don't have puffing at the dipstick, because the pressure isn't building.
Now that I think about all that you've done so far, having a leak in your PCV system kinda makes sense...
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Good advice there mate, I've already been using your good advice to buy from FCPgroton, and they have been great. I bought the 3 coils from them, shipped to our side of the planet, for less than the cost of one here. Another reason doing it myself is so much cheaper, the mechanics source parts here Oz, and I pay ridiculous prices.
I've had a poke around the breather box and the 'bleed nipple', nothing noticed out of the ordinary, and no blockage. No puffing from the dipstick, and I've checked that cold, after long drives etc. Maybe when I do the injector seals I'll slip the inlet manifold off and have closer look. The car has an immaculate service history, so no sign of sludge build-up to affect the breather box function.
I had the fuel tank pump replaced a while back, and remember seeing some idle instability after that.....but it's sorta been OK most of the time. maybe some debris got to the filter, or the new pumps output started the old injector seals to be less effective? Maybe the new pump was always shite? I think I'll prioritise the fuel gage idea.
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Jorgan - Aussie -
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Believe me, I know prices down there are a rip-off, I found that out when I paid $50 for a case of Toohey's. :-)
The fuel pump is a possibility, getting a gauge on it will help. With the pump running (and engine off) you should see 375-395 KPa.
At least you have a pretty fun spare car to drive around town...
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Not sure if anyone still follows this thread, but I pulled out the injectors, soaked them in carby cleaner, attacked them with compressed air repeatedly, then refitted them with new seals. Car is running better, more responsive and the instantaneous mileage figures look very low compared to what I remember.
Took me a while to get the parts in and get time to do the job, I only got it done today. I'll give it a week to see how things settle down and update this thread. I haven't changed the fuel filter yet, not of how the connectors work, and I want to see if the injector job makes a difference.
Overall, the car has running reliably if not exactly as it should be, and I hope today's work fully restores her smoothness.
Cheers.
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Jorgan - Aussie -
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I've been following this thread. I'm experiencing P0171 with my daughter's '01 S40. It's quite frustrating to me.
I looked at the smoke machine link and am willing to try it. Tried propane to find a vacuum leak to no avail.
Am starting to suspect fuel delivery (or lack thereof) problems. At WOT, there is some serious hesitation, normal driving it is fine. I wish I had a fuel pressure gauge that I could hook up to the fuel rail and monitor the pressure from inside the car. That way I could get to WOT under load and see the pressure.
Will a ScanGauge II monitor fuel pressure?
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Jorgan - I was hoping no news was good news.. Does the computer show L/100 km? The fuel filter is actually quite easy to do since its got the quick connects and one screw. You take off the screw then use a 17mm open wrench to pry off the hoses. Put up a new filter and push the hoses back together.. You can either empty the fuel system, or spill some.. your call
alscherntz - 0171 is rich, which can be caused by high fuel pressure.. Is there an autozone around? You can get a fuel pressure gauge with their loan-a-tool program for free (you pay now, refund when you return, you can keep for 30 days if you want) and check. If you're not sure how to use it, if you go while their slow (better yet, send your daughter :-), and they'll do it for you. You want to see 43.5 psi on the gauge, higher and you've got a problem.. If you've got a pick-n-pull closer than the autozone and $10 to spare you can just switch out and see what happens... You can get an extension for the gauge and drive with it.. The range for your pump is 220-310kPa (31.9-45 psi) outside the range, you've got issues.
Another thing you will want to try is blowing into the return line. If you feel resistance there's a clog there..
I'm assuming you've pulled your plugs correct? Did any look different from the rest, or were they all the same?
I'd do those tests before i built the smoke machine. The lack of response at WOT leads me to believe its not a cracked elbow (though, i'm sure in the end, you'll try everything else and that'll be the problem...)
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Things are a step better but not perfect. If it is/was the injectors I probably need to replace them, which is a shame as I seem to recall being able disassemble the 740 injectors and clean them properly. That made a great improvement on that old bus, as I was able to remove some significant internal build-up in them.
I've got a pressure gauge coming that I got for 2 bucks on eBay, lucky me. Hopefully it'll work and I can check the rail pressure, and then maybe swap the fuel filter.
The improvement made by soaking the injectors and then using compressed air on them was notable, but until I know the fuel pressure I can't be sure it's them (or most likely one of them) causing the issue. No CEL lights after a few days driving now, which is a marked change....
To answer, the L/100Kms has been up at 11.2, higher than normally expected 10.6. I watching to see if it comes down but as my wife is driving it mostly, it wont be a measure of normal driving habits until I get it back :)
Is the fuel pressure adjustable at the pump if it's too high?
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Jorgan - Aussie -
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Fuel consumption steady at 10.5, but getting the P0171 code again. Idle still not perfect but the car cruises nicely. I put the new fuel filter in, very easy job. There was some sediment in there when I drained it, more than I expected but probably not a show stopper. Also got a transmission code for the shift solenoid malfunctioning. And I'm getting a noise that I think may be the VVT set up. I am getting tired of this model Volvo, it is a lemon.
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Jorgan - Aussie -
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Yep, with shift solenoid going off too it appears it is a lemon. You might be able to salvage the transmission with a through flush, but you also risk getting more crap stuck at the solenoid and keeping it from working a lot sooner... If I were you I'd flush with a few gallons of the cheapest ATF you can find then work synthetic into the system. Replacing the solenoids isn't terrible, the worst part is dropping the subframe (its time consuming, and you need to devise a way to lift the engine 20mm from above (steel rod and turnbuckle work very well..). Since you didn't share codes I don't know if it was solenoids s1-s5 or one of the control ones, I can't even think of estimating you a price (New, I think the individual solenoids are 120-150 while the control system (like if you have to replace the sth or whatever) is about 1000)... Used would be much less.. If you want to tackle the job of replacing the solenoids, you might find a poster up here willing to obtain and post you the parts. However, it still is a decent job to tackle especially if you're already annoyed with the problems of the vehicle...
Anyway, back to your current problem:
Did you ever check fuel pressure? How did that turn out? Tolerance is something like 1kPa so actual numbers are important.
Is fuel trim back up to the 23% it was, or is it better?
I'm trying to figure out if there's some sort of jimmy-rigging you can do to compensate so it sits at lets say 7-8% (and in range, no codes, no problem...)
I wonder if the crap that came out might not only be in the filter. Maybe you could run a little fuel system cleaner through (or run premium fuel.. what is it 103? I don't remember the number).. It might be worthwhile to disconnect the fuel hose at the filter and the engine and shoot compressed air through it to make sure there's not clogs..
10.5 is very good, I think you're 'supposed' to be getting somewhere between 11 and 13 depending on driving habits...
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If you're not driving it "like its stolen," are you really driving?
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Thanks mate, I had the transmission flushed and serviced. The shop noted that gear changes were a little harsh and the engine is running a little rough. I think if the engine is running right the gearbox has a chance to run smooth too. The transmission code (P1075 or something like that, shift solenoid) hasn't come back. It may have been due to the engine roughness causing the transmission to be wrong footed?
Still getting P0171 codes and the consumption is creeping up again. Long term fuel trim is 23%. I've had no luck getting a fuel pressure reading, the gauge I got needs an adapter. I'm hoping to find a gauge tomorrow as it will rule in or out the fuel issue.
I am getting a rubbing noise from the VVT area that comes and goes. I think the VVT is dying, and maybe that's the whole problem? I'm going to change the oil to see if that helps, the old oil may have got affected by the excess fuel when the coils failed? Not a happy story, I found the upper engine mount broken now, probably from the trauma and rough idling. No doubt the gear changes will be clunkier with that broken.
Life can deal worse cards I guess? but it sucks when you have always had your car regularly serviced and have looked after it.
I'm going OS for 5 weeks on Sunday, and will have to hope for a miracle when I get back. Oh yes, I got an ABS light too, go figure......something I did in a previous life, but it's better than cancer :)
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Jorgan - Aussie -
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perhaps you were a kiwi in your last life? :-)
I'm trying to work around how the VVT sticking would affect fuel. I believe that maybe it could keep the exhaust valves open a bit longer allowing some air to escape? I really don't know. I don't know what the rubbing noise is, but are you sure its coming from the VVT as opposed to perhaps one of the seals hitting against the pulley? Perhaps an oil change with synthetic going in will be all it needs to quiet down.
With the car working after you come back, I'd put 50/50 odds on it (btw, if you're going off on holidays, I wish I had 5 weeks..) because of how many times I try everything to fix it and nothing. Then a couple of days later it rights itself...
I'm hoping you got that fuel gauge working and it was off. That'd at least solve it.
With the transmission, the flush will probably keep it good, but you'll want to flush every year from here on out (two if you go synthetic ATF). If you tow a boat or something you might want to monitor it, when the color starts to go brown, its time...
Wonder what your ABS is now, hopefully its just a wheel sensor that's gotten dirty or something easy that a washing will fix...
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If you're not driving it "like its stolen," are you really driving?
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Fuel pressure cannot be monitored by a scan tool, it is vacuum controlled and no electrics are involved. Too lean/rich is a result of the O2 sensors which can be monitored.
The XC poster might have had problems with injector seals. I would not reccomend cleaning injectors by soaking them, rather have them cleaned by a reputable shop such as http://www.cruzinperformance.com/ in Michigan.
Have you tried running a tank of premium gasoline? Regular gas will retard the timing a lot, especially at higher rpm.
Klaus
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