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> Dave, It amazes me how this subject upsets you so.
Frank, it amazes me that you believe this subject upsets me whatsoever!
The only thing that upsets me is seeing mass paranoia spread across the
internet among supposedly-intelligent beings.
Since I'm among the few here with anything even approaching a firm grasp
on appropriate levels of maintenance for ATF, I'm being somewhat outspoken
against the loud vast tide of mass fear and urban legends.
If you want to change your engine oil daily and your ATF every Thursday
(except the last Thursday of each month, which is devoted to applying
ArmorAll to the treads of tires and shining the soles of shoes?), I'm
certainly not going to try to stop you, but merely point out how foolish
and excessive such behavior truly is.
By now there are probably 1 or 2 of you praying for my AT to fail, just
to keep me from laughing out loud at all the AT prissiness I keep seeing
being promulgated here. Those are the ones taking this all to personally!
Keep spreading the fear, guys, and I'll keep providing the alternate
viewpoint.
I've effectively put my money where my mouth is. So has Volvo, with
their recommendations and warranty stance on premature/frequent ATF
diddling.
I'm not a fear-monger.
If a daily blood transfusion (complete replacement) made you feel better,
every day, would you want one? Hourly?
> Do you keep old engine oil in your engine for years too? If not, why?
See, I see nonsense like this, and it becomes apparent that some of you
folks really still don't get it. So I'll keep typing until you do or
someday maybe I'll get tired of trying...
> Do you keep old engine oil in your engine for years too? If not, why?
1. Engine oil is exposed to chemical pollutants as byproducts of
combustion, unlike ATF which is in a 'sealed' system. This means e.oil is
constantly being degraded by external chemical causes, which ATF is not
(except at such an infintesimally small rate with oxygen, which the
powertrain experts say is not a problem over the life of the vehicle!).
1a. These pollutants/contaminants will cause your engine oil to become
acidic, which can/will harm the metal of the engine even if it's not in
use. This does not happen to ATF.
1b. Other, particulate, contaminants (combustion blow-by), will increase
wear on your engine. These are things the engine manufacturer tries to
keep out of the oil, but cannot, at least not completely. ATF, OTOH, only
sees bits of clutch material, which are known, expected, accounted for, and
allowed. Unless the bonehead owner repeatedly opens up the system and
introduces contaminants, that is.
1c. Some 'advocates' of the "partial drain/refill" 'method', incl Dumper,
don't realize that they are introducing fresh air (oxygen) into the system
for the remaining old fluid to react with, increasing the rate at which
the remaining ATF becomes old, defeating their (supposed) purpose, while
increasing your dependence upon their (more frequent) ministrations.
2. Engine oil is exposed to extremely high temperatures, unlike ATF which
is only occasionally worked at all. Synthetics resist the heat pretty well
over time, but regular/cheap/standard/mineral oil does not -- the clock is
constantly ticking while the engine is running.
2a. Historically, ATF was being worked all the time the car was being
driven, including hour after hour at speed on the highway. As such, the
commonly recommended ATF replacement interval was 25K miles or 2 years.
2b. Since then, ATF has improved dramatically, particularly in terms of
its long-term resistance to oxidation.
2c. ATs have also improved, even more dramatically, since then; the ATF is
now being asked to do work a very small portion of the time the car is
being used, perhaps 10%.
2d. This means that the ATF rarely even gets hot, and even more rarely
stays hot.
2e. These transmissions will alert you if their ATF has become overheated.
2f. Do you think, then, that modern ATF in modern ATs requires changing
more often than 35 years ago, or less often? Do you think?
I HOPE THIS ANSWERS YOUR QUERY REGARDING HOW/WHY ATF REPL INTERVAL IS NOT
LIKE ENGINE OIL REPL INTERVAL.
Pay no attention to those men (who do keep their engine oil in for many
times the recommended engine oil change interval!!!) behind the curtain.
(Or the fact that some of them can keep their hard-working engine oil in
service longer than some of the ATF we've been hearing about here lately!!)
3. Fear mongers try to counter my (and Volvo's, and the transmission
maker's, and the ATF maker's) stance with pseudoscience and tall tales of
impending transmission woes.
3a. Folks behave superstitiously, gratuitously replace ATF (again).
3b. I say again that folks who change their ATF frequently are being
silly.
3c. The over-maintainers get upset.
The bottom line is that a good AT and good ATF take good care of each
other.
Putting bad ATF in a good transmission will hurt the transmission.
Putting good ATF in a bad transmission will hurt the ATF (NOT cure the
transmission -- even if ATF is changed daily!).
(Leukemia is not caused by lack of complete blood transfusions. Complete
blood transfusions will not cure leukemia [a disease of the blood].)
I say the above because the root of the fear seems to stem from the belief
that old ATF is bad ATF and that bad ATF will hurt your transmission. If
so, I give you credit for being 1/2 right. But also 1/2 wrong...
Hey, if your expensive transmission doesn't want to make it through the
50K mi warranty period without help from you, let it fail!!! Let Volvo buy
you and install a new one! You don't want to know, risk free, that your AT
is good for 50K miles at a time without servicing? You are more worried
about Volvo's warranty costs than they are? Just how paranoid/crazy is
that?
Look, most of us agree that "forever" is a long time to use the same ATF.
But the knee-jerk over-reacting fear-mongers among us who think that
over-reacting to Volvo's "forever" recommendation is better than not
reacting at all are fooling themselves, and others, and wasting their
resources. Some of the mileages I'm hearing lately are absurdly low.
I know what the motivations might be for those who do such jobs for money.
That might explain why some of them have gotten so upset when I continue to
poke holes in their fallacy.
If you want to keep your car forever, I say you should consider changing
your ATF (along with your distributor cap/rotor) every 70K miles (or about
5 years), when the car's out of service anyway for the preventive timing
belt replacement.
Or if you just like diddling with cars, you can do what a former
brickboarder advocated: he did a partial drain/refill of ATF with every
oil change, before he became a former brickboarder by trading his Volvo in
after 36K miles! What a waste of time, money, and ATF!!! I found that
sad and amusing all at the same time. ...certainly one case where the
longevity/durability of mechnical parts had absolutely nothing to do with
his behavior; it was merely a compulsion to "do something" to a perectly-
functioning appliance, which made him feel better.
I don't have any problem with that.
It's the spreading of baseless worry and fear, like a disease, that I so
dislike.
So every time I hear about someone like Ram who's become afflicted, and
who's changed his ATF and how his transmission is now working fine, I race
right up to my rooftop, not only to keep the elephants away, but to point
out how my transmission also is working fine, and also how Ram's was
working fine just before the transfusion (ie, he accomplished nothing).
Dexron ATF is the most over-engineered fluid in your car (unless you've
already replaced it with way-over-engineered synthetic ATF, that is). It
will last -- and serve you perfectly well -- a good long time, but only if
you let it.
- Dave; '95 854T, 101K mi; ATF flushed once
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