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This may be one of those things where the answer is right in front of me, but I'd still like some suggestions. It was the thread about the 1958 444 vs. 544 that got me to thinking. My 445 Duett, which is (California) registered as a 1957, has the features of a 1958. These include a later style "square" type grille, and trim strips which start on the hood, instead of at the front edge of the doors. There may be other little details of which I'm not aware, but my big issue is the actual VIN for the vehicle. The title lists a 4 digit number which isn't to be found anywhere, either on a plate, or stamped into the frame/body. I'm thinking that the 4 digits were on the original engine block, just like on my 444K sedan model.
Of course, that B-16, (or was it possibly a B-14?) is long gone, replaced with a B-20 when I bought it. I own the vehicle legally, the title is clear, so there's no question there. However, I could see that somewhere down the line, if I had insurance claims, or wanted to sell it out of state, someone would want to see the actual VIN on the vehicle, not just in the paperwork. Has anyone else had this issue with the pre-1959 (PV544/ B-210) Volvo cars? How did the factory actually deal with this? I mean, what if (hypothetically) you had 10 Duetts on a dealers lot, and someone removed (or switched) all the little firewall tags? How would they tell one car from another? I could see all this really sneaking up and biting someone on the posterior, just when they least expect it. Ideas, experiences, or suggestions?
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posted by
someone claiming to be SteveW
on
Wed Apr 19 03:34 CST 2006 [ RELATED]
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I also have a '58 445, and when I was restoring it a couple of years ago, I discovered the "VIN" number written in chalk on the outside of the body, on the right side footwell. It was covered by the sprayed-on undercoating that I removed to do some rust repair on the floor. Purely by coincidence, the number matches the number stamped on the aluminum plate that is screwed to the firewall on the passenger side, in the vicinity of the voltage regulator.
By the way, I had a really hard time convincing the local registry of motor vehicles that the car had only 4 digits in its "VIN" number. The clerk had to call over her supervisor to put in an override code so that the computer system would accept such a short number!
Steve
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My understanding is that it really varied between state to state how cars were titled back then... before about 1960. Some states (many) titled to the engine number. Some to the chassis number. May have even been variance from dealer to dealer, basically choosing the number easiest to find. Also was some variance as to what year cars were titled as. Some titles as teh date they were sold. Some titled according to the manufacturer as to the model year of the specific car...
I've seen many '58s of various makes titled as '57s because that's when they were sold. And vice versa, if a car sat on the lot past it's model year.
All that said... you've got a car that was titled to the engine number, and that engine is long gone. Easiest and most simple solution is indeed to stamp a new 'vin' tag that matches what the title says. You might even be able to get a blank reproduction chassis number tag... not sure on that with Volvos.
I've dealt with this sort of issue a couple times... first was with my '53 Jaguar XK120. It wasn't until I had the completely wasted engine out and apart that I realized it was titled to that engine, and that number was to be found nowhere else on the car. And I had bought it out of state, so I needed a vin verification to transfer title... what a pain that was.. I took teh car for inspection with engine on the passengers floor... that seemed good enough for the inspection... until... I wanted to change the title such that it would be titled to the chassis number.
Well... after about 10 trips to MVR, trips to state patrol (on a tow truck each time) for 'certified' vin inspections... a real pain, but in the end, and with the help of a super nice girl at MVR, I did eventually get clear title to the chassis number. If I did it again, I'd take a different route.
Second similar issue I had was with a '60 Jaguar MK2. Again from out of state, so the vin inspection was necessary... the ID plate in the car and the title matched except the last two digits... the car tag ended in 'BW', and the title ended in 'DN'. BW designated an automatic transmision. DN designated a manual... this car had a manual tranny, and did from the factory (I got a copy of the build sheet)... so in this case, that BW on the car's ID tag was simply a mistake from the factory, and they admitted that's what went wrong...
For that one, I just got a reproduction VIN tag, had it stamped to match the title and riveted it on and had no problems thereafter.
That's what I'd do if I were you. Also, companies such as Broadway title might be able to get you a proper title to the chassis number....
Good luck with it. I hate that stuff....
--
-Matt I ♥ my ♂
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I haven't read the other posts below, so this may be a duplicate suggestion:
I had no VIN on my 1947 Willys Jeep, so I got a set of number stamps and a strip of aluminum (Zinc is also a good choice) and stamped the VIN into the metal. I then riveted the strip to the firewall. It's been through three change-of-state inspections and no one ever mentioned the VIN tag looking odd.
Steve
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I have found the chassis number of Chassis and Duett models stamped into the frame crossmember beneath the radiator section. The radiator section must be removed for the number to be seen, as it is stamped into the topside of the radiator mounting flange on said crossmember.
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Bearman, I believe that you and I have already corresponded on this issue, notably regarding my 1957 PV444 which turned out to have last 4 digits of the engine block as the VIN in my California vehicle title. I've been a memeber of the Round Fender Register since around 1999.
Never-the-less, I have also heard the rumor to the effect of the VIN being on the radiator support. If this is true, then you are the first person who can definitely confirm this. Is this true for the early, pre-1959 cars, or for Duetts only? After all, it's a real chore to strip down the front of a Duett to the frame rails. Is the number on the upper, or lower side of the bracket?
To the Brickboard community; sorry to keep belaboring this, but to my mind, there can't be a more important issue than to be able to absolutely and legally identify your vehicle. Somewhere, somehow we're going to have to get an official, iron clad answer and chisel this in marble. (How's that for a mangled metaphor?) For most early PV owners, it's one of those questions which doesn't really matter, UNTIL IT REALLY MATTERS!! I recently blew a deal because I couldn't accurately provide the VIN to a car.
Does anyone have a connection to the Volvo museum, or to vehicle historians in Sweden?
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As far as I have seen, it's only on Duetts and any other separate frame PV variants. It is on the upper side of the bracket that is welded to the front crossmember. I had only seen early 445 brackets, but the post from Kees states that his 210 has it, as well.
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My 1960 P210 has 4 different numbers.
The number on the tag, this is its official number here in the Netherlands.
The same number (luckily) is also stamped in the sheetmetal just above the heaterunit in the engineroom.
The small tag at the leftside of the engineroom, which is a internal factory number.
And a number on the front framemember under the radiator. This number doesn't match the number of the body! So I have covered it in a lot of paint, and hope nobody will ever ask funny questions about it.
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Richard, you can't rely on the V.I.N. number, since it was common, even in Sweden, to swap tags. That's why Volvo started stamping the V.I.N. into the "B" pillar door in August 1966 and stopped putting it onto the metal plate. I documented the 4 identification plate styles a while back on this forum including when they changed styles.
I think I commented on the existance of an internal control number, usually on a plate, painted and on the left firewall. These numbers seldom matched the V.I.N.
Regarding your 445, there were 4 model years spanning 1956 - 1960. It appears that each of the variations had their own chassis numbers, since they were viewed as a different model.
- G model (4 variations) made from March/April 1956 - January/February 1957,
- L model (4 variations) made from January/February 1957 - June 1957,
- P-4450x (5 variations) made from June 1957 - October 1958,
- M model (5 variations) made from October 1958 - July 1960,
The variations were for the cab/chassis model, the panel van, the station wagon and another type (pickup?). I'll get my Swedish friend to translate the different variation names. The 5th variation in the last 2 years was specifically a model imported into the USA. This model was called the Personherrgåsvagn USA P-44508-1957, chassis number (VIN) 3961 - 9072. The next year's model was referred to as the Personherrgåsvagn USA P-44508 M, chassis number (VIN) 9073 - 9145. So, maybe that 4 digit registration number may be the original V.I.N.?
More confusion?
--
Cam a.k.a. CVOLVO.COM
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I did a literal translation and this was confirmed by my Swedish friend:
Leveranschassi P-44501 delivery chassis, just the frame with axles, engine, front fenders and the cowl. No doors or roof or anything behind. Used for pickups, convertibles and other non-Volvo applications
Skåpvagn P-44505 panel/delivery truck was often without rear side windows
Herrgårdsvagn P-44506 station wagon had rear side glass, utility version
Personherrgårdsvagn P-44507 country estate wagon, same as above with more deluxe upholstery and other features
Personherrgårdsvagn USA P-44508 country estate wagon, same as above with vinyl interior and windows for the rear seat that would crank down
The USA importation numbers are:
1956 - 200
1957 - 650
1958 - 916
1959 - 161
1960 - 121
These may be production numbers by calendar year and I suspect some did find their way into Canada.
--
Cam a.k.a. CVOLVO.COM
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My 67 Duett bears the post 66 information out. I have a VIN # stamped into the firewall right above the heater.
Bob
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Bob, that's the body number, an internal number that Volvo used inside the factory to keep track before production was completed. I believe that every Volvo was initially assigned this number, but some did not make it out the doors, hence did not receive a V.I.N. I toured the Torslanda plant and even today a vehicle can be taken off the line following the body construction phase, after the paint process or during/after the final assembly. There is even a test track inside the plant, where selected cars are tested at random. If a car fails for any reason, it will have to re-enter the assembly process or even be scrapped. My PVs and Amazon both have this body number, on the left firewall or the inside fender on the Amazon.
That said, it's possible that some vintage Volvos might have been registered in the USA or Canada with the body number, not the proper V.I.N.
--
Cam a.k.a. CVOLVO.COM
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Cam: It was my impression that the body number was the painted tag on the firewall that was embossed with the number and screwed to the firewall before painting...in the case of my '67, that tag is on the passenger side just above and to the left (looking at the firewall from the engine bay) of the battery.
I haven't had my front clip off to see if there is a chassis number in the area of the radiator support.
Bob
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So, if I understand correctly, the only reliable VIN on my 1957 Duett is to be found by completely removing the front clip of my vehicle!! The aluminum tag on the passenger side of the firewall has only the TYPE number (44508). Call me simple, but I'm unclear just how this makes for accurate verification. Is everyone else out there in Volvoland with a pre-1960 Volvo (or at least a PV or Duett) floating about with some sort of arbitrary VIN in their vehicle titles? What did thedealers actually do when they took delivery of a bunch of new vehicle, and before the ywere issued with titles? I can just see a bunch of apprentices in the dealers lot, busily removing the front clips of all those vehicles, just so they can get a factory designated VIN !! Let's keep this thread going, maybe we can arrive at a satisfactory answer. It does affect a lot of us, no?
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I wonder if your aluminum identication plate was somehow changed? As far as I know, all Volvos had this plaque attached to the firewall at the factory. As I mentioned earlier, until August 1966, this plate had the model type, chassis number (V.I.N.) color and interior codes all punched onto the plate. The fact it was only held in place with 4 phillips screws, meant it could be removed. Recently I've seen replacement blank plates for sale on eBay.
As you can see, rather than having one long V.I.N. code as we see today, Volvo had this information on multiple lines of the plate, but someone decided that the chassis number was all that would be used - maybe people were more honest 50 years ago? Needless to say, I'm certain there have been countless cases where the car's identity was either deliberately or accidentally changed. Every time I license one of these older Volvos, I'm questioned why it has such a short V.I.N. and have to convincingly tell them that's all that was used way back then!
--
Cam a.k.a. CVOLVO.COM
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Well, I hope this thread will be illuminating enough to be at the top of an archive list. I can't stress too much that I think this to be critical stuff!
I really shouldn't be surprised to find out that the older Volvos such a casual approach to VINs. It has to be similar to their leisurely attitude to parts continuity, and nomclementure of the various models. My local Volvo crowd likes to tells Volvo newbies who are confused about what is the "correct" part for their older Volvo; "correct is whatever Olaf or Sven found in the parts bin on the assembly line that day"!!
Equally difficult to explain is why the model numbers are all over the place; from 444 to 445 to 544 to 210 to 122 to 140, etc, etc. No rhyme or reason. So, why should I expect any sort of logic when it comes to something as important as a VIN? Maybe car theft was unknown in 1950s Sweden?
I think it's starting to look like I'll never have a single concrete answer to the VIN question. I can only search for the best solution in my own particular case. I'm going to dismantle the vehicle, try to locate the legendary hidden VIN, and stamp it into a new plate from Europe. At the same time, I can also stamp that new number into the frame (firewall), about where it is on a later B-18 PV544. In the worst case, I'll have to have the new chosen VIN entered into my title, or get another one issued. Sometimes it's possible to find someone at the DMV who doesn't assume one is a criminal, and will help find a solution. I sure hope so. Thanx again, all,.
P.S. Our crowd also has a saying to the effect that, " old Volvos are famous for running forever, just on the brink of total collapse,.."!!
P.P.S. Duett specific question; is my 1958 Duett (titled as a '57) supposed to have the earlier oval taillights, or the later rectangular type? What was the first year of the newer type?
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This may sound like a "chicken and egg" answer, but the rectangular taillights for the 44508 model started with chassis number 8352. According to the PV-klubben factbook, these rectangular taillights were introduced on the M model, October 1958-July 1960. My parts catalog indicates there were 2 styles of earlier taillights, one round with an integrated license plate light (van/truck version?), the other oval, mounted just above the rear bumper sections. Hope this helps?
--
Cam a.k.a. CVOLVO.COM
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