Hi guys. I changed the oil on my PV 444 B18D engine, a few days ago and switched to Mobile 1. The front seal and oil pan is now peeing oil all over the place. If I drain the Mobile 1 and go back to regular oil, will the leak stop? Seems Mobil 1 has a leak detective blended in with the other additives. It shure knows how to find leaks where other oil have failed to locate.

Regards,

Patrick

Hi Patrick,

I researched this a little, since I was very curious about it. I have a theory and a proposed remedy, what do you think about this?

If you look at the CVI catalog (p. 6), there are two types of crankshaft seals, "oil seal type" and "for modern sealing." I emailed CVI, but my suspicion is that the old oil seals are made of either felt or rope. New seals are likely neoprene rubber. Now this theory applies to B18 engines, so if your PV has a B16, its even more likely it has the older felt/rope type seals.

I went to the link someone else provided to a brochure provided by Mobil. They do admit that older seal materials may not be compatible with Mobil 1. While they have adjusted their formulations to include "seal additives" to help gaskets swell and seal, the older felt or rope material will not swell like neoprene (or other rubbers) when exposed to these additives. Somewhere else, I found a statement that synthetics are known to have "cold flow" problems (they are more slippery, viscous, or their lubricity is better than petroleum oils). All this confirms that your gasket/oil combination is likely the problem here.

The good news is: switching back to a petroleum oil (Pennzoil or Castrol GTX high mileage), or possibly one of the syntetics designed for "High Mileage" (Mobil sells one, there is a link someone provided below) will probably solve the leak.

If you try it let me know how it turns out!

I'm doing an oil change myself today, and had to stop my boyfriend from putting Mobil 1 in my B18. I convinced him to use Castrol GTX high mileage 10W-40. I'll let you know if this works. It currently has a very minor drip only.

belinda

"Likely neoprene rubber"
or Nitrile Rubber /black ?
or Silicone Rubber /red ?
or is Nitrile and Silicone rubber the same and color added?
Perhaps the dino oil keeps neoprene swollen,
and the synthetic doesn't.
For example,when working on brake systems great
care must be taken to ensure the O-rings and seals
do not come in contact with oil or petro chem.
Green Book recomends methyl alchohol or brake fluid
for cleaning.
Ken
--
White 86-245 DL, M 46, IPD bars & Wagon Overloads,Commando Bumpers,SS Belly Pan & Air Pickup,Straight-Shot EMT Chassis & Tower Braces,Scorpius Alloys,2 Belt No AC Conversion,Black POR-15 No Glare Front End

I have a 245dl right now&I've been thinking of switching to Amsoil Synthetic,,but the only reservation I have when i last used synthetic in my Ford e150 van .It had about 125k on it&I should have started from the it on syn. when I bought it&then would not have had any problems.
Leaks are said to be caused by the cleaning action of synthetics taking out all the gunk left behind by the shitty dino crud.
I' read the best thing to do is change over to all new seals&gaskets before using syn.&then you won't have the leaking problem.
The other thing to do is to put on one of amsoils huge remotely mounted oil filters&then you can go 25,000 or more between changes.The Amsoil synthetic is supposed to be so good it won't degrade or need replacing before that.

"Somewhere else, I found a statement that synthetics are known to have "cold flow" problems (they are more slippery, viscous, or their lubricity is better than petroleum oils). All this confirms that your gasket/oil combination is likely the problem here."

How is having better cold flow a problem??? Ya lost me there... Awesome post though otherwise, thanks!
--
Kyle - 142, 145, and 244! - Oregon Volvo Tuners?

Hello, Belinda. Thanks a bunch for your detective work. I will check out CVI, and get more info/availability on the modern seals for my B18D engine. Furthermore, seems you've cleared up an age-old question, " is it Mobil 1 or is it a bad gasket?" I've already ordered a new crankshaft seal, prior to receiving your feedback. A long time PV mechanc told me a few days ago that you don't have to remove the timing cover in order to replace the seal. I'm going to give it a try. Nice weather I see you have out there in the Phoenix area.

Regards,

Patrick

If you are able to change the front seal without removing the cover then you definately have a felt seal, as you will need to press in a neoprene one. in order to use a noeprene one the cover will need to be machined. I would strongly recommend that you do this as it will eliminate the front seal as a leak source for good. IPD sells the seals for $10 or so and they will give you specs for having the cover machined. I did it when I rebuilt my b18.
Steve

Patrick - In addition to changing your oil, you did subject your car to one other change, the long hard drive.

I would clean the leaking areas and see if the oil is leaking out while the car sits. If not, or if you have any doubt, you should check the breathing systen to see if it is in order and in good working condition. If it is building pressure, it could be forcing oil out because the Mobil 1 is splashing to more places than your old oil.

Also, it is possible that the engine breathing system is not properly hooked up, causing a problem. I recently bought a B 16 and was surprised to see that it had a nice PCV valve and hoses on the side of the engine. I suspect that the PO had added it to lessen oil burning/leaking problems that this old engine might have had. Even though PCV systems were added to cars because of pollution, they did have benefits, such as less smoke. Some people remove or defeat such systems without considering their possible benefits, or even there overall functions. I learned this lesson when I put a new motor in a Suburban. I was surprised to find that the mechanic had left the old pollution "spiders" on the engine, even though each side had 3 out of 4 blocked by the PO. The mechanic told me that he had removed them once ot twice, but the engines did not run as well as when they were minimally present.

Your oil pan looks pretty clean. Are there any deposits of dark gritty oil higher up on the engine, or other areas nearby? Perhaps the PO had the same problem and was wiping the oil off on a regular basis. Or the engine had that problem when it was swapped in.

In any event, at least a front seal and oil pan gasket can go together in the same repair. Do a search for oil pan gasket leak, as someone has recently posted his woes about NEW oil pan gaskets leaking. I don't know if it was PV, 1800, or just RWD, but it was during the last couple of weeks. If you change the gasket, you might want to see his findings.

Here's the post that I mentioned - http://www.brickboard.com/RWD/index.htm?id=1131172 - I remembered that I had sent him a message, so it was easy to find.

--
'96 855R,'64 PV544 driver, '67 P1800 basket case, '95 855, '95 854, the first three are mine, heh, heh, 415,000 miles put on 9 bricks

I changed over from Havoline 10-30wt at 118,000 miles. at that time the rear main seal would drip once when parked, but the bottom of the engine and transmission stayed dry if I cleaned them before a test drive.

I figured that small oil loss wasn't much to worry about until the next rebuild.

I've been running Mobile 1 for about a year now - two oil changes - and I haven't seen any increase in leakage or burning of oil.

When I adjusted the valves several times before the changeover I did notice that there was no sludge or discoloring of the inside of the rocker cover or the top of the head. That should mean that the PO did her oil changes on a regular basis - at $185.00 per change!

I think if you have significant oil loss from the front main seal, the best thing to do is to fix it now, rather than try to go back to dino oil in hopes that it will cure itself.

The front seal is a fairly easy job, requiring that you pull the radiator, fan, front pulleys, and timing cover. You could probably do it in one afternoon, two at the most.

The only 'special' tool you'd need would be a torque wrench, which you can usually rent at an auto parts store or even some home centers.

Thanks for the input. Since the timing cover and oil pan seems relatively easy to change, I'll devote a week-end to change the seal and gasket. The weather here in California is tolerable at the moment. At $3 and change a pop for the mobil 1, it's kinda hard seeing good oil go to waste.

BTW, there's a threaded stud with a nut on it at the forward edge of the oil pan, does anyone know what's it for? It seems to go in to the oil pan and nothing else. I'm giving it the, " if you don't know what it does, then leave it alone," treatment.

Regards,

Patrick

Patrick,

Picture may help identify the stud.

Could you possibly be talking about an oil temp sender bung?
P1800, 1800S, E & ES models had a temp. sender that threaded through the side of the oil pan. The bung was about the same size as the drain plug hole.
Maybe your pan came from a different engine.

Just guesses.

I also have not had a problem with leaks after changing to Mobil1 on engines over 75,000 miles. Sounds like it is just luck of the draw.

--
Tom - '60 544, '68 220S, '70 145S, '72 144E (recently deceased & sorely missed.....need parts?), '86 745T

Afraid to say this stud doesn't fit your description. It's really weird, the threaded stud simply goes up in to the oil pan, and it's as if comeone used a lock nut to secure it. My only guess is perhaps there was a hole in the oil pan and someone drilled a hole and used the stud and nut with a fabric washer to stop the leak. I'm going to replace the oil pan gasket anyway, therefore, when the pan is down, I'll see exactly what's going on with the stud. I will then report to the forum my findings.

As I mentioned in my previous post, my '56 PV444 runs like a scalded dog with the B18D engine.

Regards,

Patrick

Switch to a high mileage type oil and you might get lucky and have things settle back down. I used to think that all of the tales of oil leaks starting after switching to Mobil 1 were coincidences until it happened to me.

John

Same thing happened to me. Had to replace seals THEN went back to dino and never looked back.
Good Luck.
CC

Patrick - Interesting, to say the least. My opinion would be that once it starts leaking, it leaks regardless. But some questions come to mind.

- Did you change viscosity when you switched to Mobil 1?

- What was the previous oil, and how long had it been in there?

Gary
--
1971 142E ITB racer, 1973 1800ES, 2002 S60 T5

I started using Mobil 1 In my 240 with 163,000 miles,it has 200,000 now with no loss of oil. I use it in two 940t~s 50,000 miles and 150,000 miles, 94 f150 with 83,000 miles none have oil leaks. Some times it will leak around seals that are considerably worn. Mobil 1 is real slippery more so than most petroleum oils. If there is any reason for a seal to leak like slightly higher crankcase pressures or gaskets that are on the verge of leaking, Mobil 1 will find it. On engines like this I always used conventional oil. You could most likley go back to the same oil used prior to Mobil 1 but it takes a while for some to stop leaking. Some do not stop leaking after clearing a path to less resistance. Synthetic oils also clean sludge build up around gaskets and seals that would in some cases help prevent oil seepage. This is evident after a few oil changes you start to notice the oil comes out much cleaner and the inside of valve covers looks cleaner. All disagreements welcome. ledfoot

I had Pennzoil 10W-30 oil in the crank case. Mind you, I didn't drive the car over 45mph since I bought it back in August of this year because I had a vibrating u-joint. I've since replaced both rubber bushings for the center bearing. After replacing the bushings, I took the car for a long, hard drive on the freeway. I also drove it around town for two days to get used to it. I then inspected the engine and underside of the car for signs of leaks etc. That's when I found the leaks. I'm going to go back to the Pennzoil and see what happens. I must say that the B18D engine the previous owner installed, in my opinion, might be too powerful for the 444. I had to back off the gas when the speedo indicated 90 mph. Assuming the speedo was offscale high, by, say, 10 mph, 80 mph was still pretty fast for a PV 444.

Regards,

Patrick

The problem was most likely caused from gunk/wax buildup near the seal from the older oil and possible lack of proper oil change intervals, etc. Mobil 1 is a pretty good engine cleaner, and it probably worked those gunky deposits loose and allowed your worn seal(s) to leak.
--
Kyle - 142, 145, and 244! - Oregon Volvo Tuners?

"Mobil 1 is a pretty good engine cleaner, and it probably worked those gunky deposits loose and allowed your worn seal(s) to leak."

This is an often repeated theory, but I've never seen any proof of it. Rotating shaft seals do not work that way. Perhaps a flat seal like at the oil pan might get some advantage from built up residue, but I find it hard to see how this would apply to a crankshaft seal.

John

"Rotating shaft seals do not work that way.

But unless I missed something, we don't know which type of seal we're dealing with here. It may very well be the original felt ring.

Gary L
--
1971 142E ITB racer, 1973 1800ES, 2002 S60 T5

Intriguing question. What is the material of construction of the crankcase seal?

I'm wondering if the Pennzoil simply swelled the seal more than the Mobile 1? It is not likely the base oil that is having a major effect here, but the additives are? Perhaps the additive molecules in Pennzoil are smaller and can thus swell the rubber (assuming the seal is rubber) better? (maybe?)

Just thinking of this in terms of the chemistries of the two oil formulations and the seal materials. Maybe I'll ask around about this. It seems like if this is true, there should be a good reason for it.


belinda

This implies the problem could be fixed with the correct seal material..

http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html

-Gaskets and seals! With the makeup of synthetic oils being different from mineral oils, mineral-oil-soaked gaskets and seals have been known to leak when exposed to synthetic oils. Perhaps not that common an occurrence, but worth bearing in mind nevertheless.

There was a time, years ago, when switching between synthetic oils and mineral oils was not recommended if you had used one product or the other for a long period of time. People experienced problems with seals leaking and high oil consumption but changes in additive chemistry and seal material have taken care of those issues. And that's an important caveat. New seal technology is great, but if you're still driving around in a car from the 80's with its original seals, then this argument becomes a bit of a moot point - your seals are still going to be subject to the old leakage problems no matter what newfangled additives the oil companies are putting in their products.

-------------------------
The lubricity additives could also be very different between Pennzoil (which is largely mineral oil based) and Mobil 1 (fully synthetic). These are the "slippery" molecules, that could work their way through small crevices easier. Unfortunately, the exact lubricant chemistry is proprietary to these companies. So finding out what ingredient it is in the oil, exactly, causing the problem would be tough, I suspect.

Please, see pag 9 on http://www.mobil.com/Australia-English/LCW/files/MPVL000226_TManual_small.pdf

As a alternative for old engines: http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_Clean_High_Mileage.aspx
--
Joaquin / Rojo 121 / Lima