posted by
someone claiming to be IdahoKidd
on
Tue Sep 30 15:30 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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I just purchased a remarkably clean and very well maintained 1975 164e today to park alongside my 57 444K. The car has sat for several years. Here's the scoop. It will start and idle and idle for hours. It will make about 1.6 mph and it surges on the road. I can hear the fuel pump surge as well, even at an idle. I pulled the primary fuel line off the fuel rail and when the key is turned on, there is a 2 second (?) burst of fuel and then nothing. Turning the key off and on repeatedly will let the motor, when started, run up to full rpm with good throttle control, but only for perhaps 10 seconds. It is clearly starving for fuel. I can't find a thing in the archives that addresses anything like this. The tank had been drained and there is a new fuel filter just in front of the fuel pump. I am reasonably sure it has the ability to get fuel, it is the constant cycling of the pump that is giving me grief. What am I looking for?
Many thanks,
Leonard
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There is no strainer or filter in this tank and no plug or any other access to one. I pulled the sending unit out and went in with mirrors and came up with nothing. It seems to run okay now with the zcar fuel pump but it did hiccup once, letting me know it wasn't completely fixed. I fueled up with premium (at a premium price too!) and am planning a Sunday drive.
Thanks to all that offered help, I learned more about the fuel system on this car than I ever wanted to know.
Leonard
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Besides the others' good ideas, you could also have a clogged strainer ...
On my old '75 164, there was (inside the tank and accessible via a small screwthreaded, square-drive, plug* on the underside of the tank) a small filter (or strainer, if you want to call it that) -- a paper element. It could be clogged and collapsing to give the same "strangulation" symptoms you've reported.
The Volvo p/n for a replacement filter is 599693.
* to drive the plug, which is a ~12mm square female, I slightly ground down an old (discarded) 1/2-inch drive extension (of an old ratchet wrench set) until it fit into the square recepticle.
Good luck.
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Thanks for the tip on the strainer. My green manual talks about that as well but there is absolutely NO such plug on the tank of this car. At least not on the bottom or any of the sides and certainly not where the picture/drawing in the book shows it to be. I am pretty certain (99% so) that everything on the car is original or volvo replacement. The previous owners picked the car up in Sweden at the factory and there are records for everything, and I mean everything. I do think there is a problem still in the pickup part of the tank, be it a filter, crud, something. The only removable component on the tank that I have found is fuel sending unit on top accessable from the trunk and the fuel pipe to the fuel pump has a nut welded to it as though the entire pipe will unscrew from the tank. I have considered the 1/2 hose from the tank to the pump and believe it to be okay but am replacing it today as well.
Thanks for the help and if I can find something conclusive I will let everyone know.
Leonard
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I got a little idea for you. I found this on a 71 1800 last week. The fuel pressure would build up (by gauge) but would sink down to 22 PSI, especially with acceleration,( which was bogged down).
I tried another pump, turned out to be not the owner's spare pump, but the one he was replacing. He wanted it to be pretty, so when he was cleaning and painting his old spare, he confused it with the previous pump. The pressure again would not go above 22 PSI.
I then fiqured that two pumps in a row would not fail identically like that, then fiqured that he had mixed up the pumps.
I thought on a different angle and realized that an old flimsy intake hose for the FI pump was collapsing. Replaced with a sturdier hose and problem solved.
--
Antique Swedish Steel 71 142E color V#102
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posted by
someone claiming to be IdahoKidd
on
Thu Oct 2 15:29 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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So I go out and start the car and it runs great. Good throttle response, everything like it is supposed to--for about 20 seconds and symptoms of fuel starvation. Then I can hear the fuel pump cycling, sounding a lot like a telegraph machine. I notice that when I hear the pump cycle, the engine speed cycles with it. That is, when the pump goes tat tat tat, the engine revs, and when the pump drops off, the engine drops off. It never dies, but does run rough in the lulls.
I pulled out the distributor and cleaned up the points as suggested and then checked the continuity. Each side makes contact for half a revolution (checked with test light).
There is power to pump via a connector in the trunk over the fuel gauge access hole. (The fuel gauge only comes up to just above the red warning level however). Is it possible it is a defective or malfunctioning pump?
Am I correct in assuming I should drain the tank before I attempt to change or look at the in tank fuel filter? There is at least 12 gallons of fuel currently in the tank.
Thanks for listening. I hope something in this triggers a memory and I can drive this car soon. It has 140K miles and has only been driven 5500 miles in the past 16 years.
Leonard
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Hi Leonard;
It still sounds like a bad pump. When they go bad, they can make pressure, or volume, but not both. You need both. That may explain the good initial response that goes away with time.
While the pump is making the noise and the engine idling, give the pump a good smack with a hammer. It might sort it out briefly.
Rhys
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Rhys,
As usual, you're right. I had a spare pump for my 280z and swapped it in for a test and drove the car (what a toad! must be the automatic or are they all terribly under powered?) But at least it seems to be working. Can I assume that a 140 pump will work in this 164? I know squat about the "newer" volvo's. I did manage to get logged in and did upload a picture of the 57. I'll post a picture of the 164 after I get it washed. Nice car for what it is!
Leonard
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The BW35 trans is a heavy pile of crap. That's most of the problem, and the later B30's had lower compression as well. If the distributor has a vacuum retard capsule ( I think it does ) then disconnect it and plug the fitting at the manifold. Crank in as much timing as you can, starting at 10 BTDC at idle. If it doesn't ping keep going up.
I had a 73 164E five speed for a while, and after re-ringing the engine and sticking a new E cam in it, it was a blast. Actually quite quick, and always smooth.
Volvo D-jet pumps are the same really - someone might offer that they have different part numbers or something, but it will not matter. In fact the Datsun pump is a very nice copy really - although Datsun copied the L-jet, not the D-jet. They were smart.
If the throttle switch is in adjustment, then the idle mixture potentiometer will adjust idle mixture. Right rear door, look forward under the front passenger seat, and you'll see a large plastic slotted knob in a metal box. Turn it (works in reverse) to set the mixture. When the engines have good cams and good injector seals, they will idle nicely.
Good job getting it running! Save your money for gas though....
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[Apologies to Rhys and Paul -- I jumped in without scanning the thread.]
If the tank pickup pipe still has a barrel-shaped filter on it*, it could be getting clogged with rusty crud from the old tank setting unused for so long.
That's what I found on a '73 140 once with a similar history. It would idle all day but stall out after a mile or so. Then after a short rest it was good for another mile, etc. etc.
[Showed nicely on a fuel pressure gauge -- finally.]
* I've "heard" that these in tank filters (on the pickup pipe, just above the brass tank plug) were supposedly removed per a TSB many years ago.
P.S. From Rhys and Paul... it sounds like the trigger points, besides the injector timing, may be an early version of Bosch's FI safety feature — no fuel to a dead motor???
--
Bruce Young, '93 940-NA (current), 240s (one V8), 140s, 122s, since '63.
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Trigger points in the bottom of the distribution normally give you a bit of warning. When the gap closes up on one of the points, you loose 3 cylinders, so it would idle bad too. If it idles smooth, I wouldn't look in the bottom of the distributor.
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I pulled the primary fuel line off the fuel rail and when the key is turned on, there is a 2 second (?) burst of fuel and then nothing.
That's normal. The control unit turns the fuel pump on for two seconds to prime the system. The pump does not come on again until the points in the bottom of the distributor are opening & closing which happens when you are cranking it over or the engine is actually running.
Did you replace the 1/2" hose? Any air getting sucked in there will cause havoc with the pump.
Like Rhys says, you really need a pressure gauge to diagnose.
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Is that you Leonard?! Long time no see!
I'd put a pressure gauge on the system - you can install it in the line to the start valve. Even an old direct reading oil pressure gauge will work. You need something around 30 psi in the Demonic-tronic. That's where I'd start.
If it's low, the pump is struggling and should be replaced.
Take the trigger contacts out of the distributor and clean them too. Use a tiny bit of breaker point lube on the rubbing blocks.
Rhys
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posted by
someone claiming to be IdahoKidd
on
Wed Oct 1 02:08 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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Hey Rhys, it is me! Life sort of got in the way of Volvo projects but I stumbled into this very very nice one owner 164e, purchased in Sweden and then the owners came to the states and brought it with them. Any way, the thing had a rotted fuel line at the fuel filter and it would spray fuel everywhere. Changed it out with 8mm high pressure BMW fuel line and the car starts right up and idles along. It just won't go down the road any faster than one could push it. I figured out the 2 second fuel burst when the key is on from the Volvo service manual I found in the trunk. It is supposed to do exactly that. Because that works, I know that: the pump is picking up fuel, the lines aren't blocked, and the pump works. I haven't put a line test on it yet (just got the car 2 hours before dark last night) but I makes enough pressure it is impossible to hold your thumb over the end of the line without getting a shower. Lots of pressure. What it isn't doing is getting that pressure in the "run" position. I can hear the pump cycle in about 4 second intervals. I am looking for the easy fix but from experience I know that only applys to other people. I know next to nothing about the contacts in the distributor, I didn't even know they existed until about midnight last night. It sounds to me like all they do is fire half of the injecters when triggered. I could be wrong, have been before, but I don't think that is it. When I cycle the key several times, the car runs awesome for 10 seconds (100 yards) and then fades back. I towed the car behind my pickup with a strap, in the dark, for 12 miles and it idled the entire time. Got it home, unhooked the strap, it didn't have enough power to back into its parking spot.
As a side bar, I tried to log in and it didn't recognize my password. I have changed emails and can't have the old one sent to me. Any way to get back into the system or do I have to start all over with a new registration and handle?
Thanks,
Leonard
Moscow, Idaho
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How good is the fuse & it's holder? With injected cars the worst fuse holder is the one for the pump.
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I had a very similar problem in my djet 145 last week. The car would buck like mad, I couldn't make it up even a modest grade from a stop. I pulled the distributor to get to the triggers, which looked really dirty. I cleaned them up, gave the distributor a thorough cleaning (especially the shaft), and it fixed my problem completely. It only took 20 minutes or so, it's definitely worth a shot.
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I've been mulling over the posts so far but haven't come to a conclusion myself--been a while since dealing with the system--the suggestions to check and clean/lube the trigger points are good in and of themselves-an often overlooked component-but I've found them to either work, or not work. Am I understanding that the motor doesn't rev, even in park/neutral? -- no matter throttle position? The throttle switch--the air sensor--distributor advance--are areas that will allow a motor to run, but not properly. I'd be happy to help get a 164 up and running--been cleaning shelves filled with parts in the basement and have found most, if not all of the parts for a system--4 and/or 6 cylinder. You can borrow or buy whatever I have. If you get tired of dealing with it, I have available, a dual Weber 32/36 set up that mounts on a 164S manifold.
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posted by
someone claiming to be IdahoKidd
on
Wed Oct 1 15:35 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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You are correct, there is no throttle response to speak of. Sometimes you can "feather" the throttle and get it to move in rpm but it runs up a little and stalls. Whatever it is is probably really simple, just a matter of finding it. I had to work late today and haven't had a chance to do any of the things suggested. One local guy suggested I pull the rear seat and get to the fuel pump connector and hook up a hot wire to the pump. This bypasses all of the other issues (electrically) and see if it makes a difference. For the life of me I can figure out how to get the back seat out. As for the fuses, the one marked "fuel injection", number 7 down I think, I pulled it out and there was no change in the car as it was running. Not sure what to think there....
When it does run, it runs remarkably well, just not for very long. Long enough to sucker me back out into traffic for 50 yards....
Thanks for the advice and help. I will putter away later. Right now, it is dinner and a nap...........
Leonard
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If I suggest problems with the throttle position sensor, corrosion on the windings, or similar in the plug, it might show that I don't know much about the FI system. However, the ECU does need to get some signals from here. I'd certainly check all of the wiring and connectors.
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