Hi all,

This morning my 245 decided it wanted to sleep in. It will crank & crank but no start. I do get an occasional backfire from the exhaust. I can confirm spark (via timing gun), but haven't confirmed its on time. Pulling the plugs they looked and smelled a bit wet, so I seem to be getting fuel. The CPS has been changed by the previous owner and now is a "white band" unit.
Using various used parts from a car I junked a while back, read as maybe OK, I swapped the Fuel Relay, Coil, and Amplifier w/o results.

The car is getting a 2-3-2 code currently but I would think that to be a red herring as it isn't even able to run now. I did find the snorkel on the intake at the throttle body loose, but it didn't seem to make a difference after I tightened it up.
Suggestions?

Hello,

You've got spark and fuel...how's the air?

Check the intake pathway from air filter to throttle body. Could something went into it? You mentioned that the snorkel was loose before.

Could a weak battery cause power drain from ECU/ICU during start? With the presence of spark and fuel I can remotely guess.

Hope this helps,
Amarin.

Ok you say you have checked everything by the book. I can't believe it does not hit? We have missed something in stepping the sequence of air, fuel and heat or spark?
Spark you can see it to verify.
Timing for compression has to be there and the pumps run. I think I read you have fuel pressure!

Have you ever used a large amount of starting fliud vapor blown into the snorkel tube in order to get it to hit on several cylinders?

You can spray it directly in front of the AMM or into a side port of the accordion tube in front of the throttle plate. It will take quite a fog, of the boiled off liquid, sprayed out to reach the cylinders and run any length of time from the AMM. This is not a small lawn mower engine.

If the engine shows any life suddenly, then it has to be a fuel problem.

In order to get around the ECS.... even though it should be hitting.
I believe if you can fool the ECU with a resistor that can be pushed in across the connectors terminals of the ECS wire.
A Normal heated up engine operation is around 300 to 500 ohms according to the Bentley. I think 1500 is a cool engine at about 60 degrees.

If you have a stethoscope or a thin long shank screwdriver head to the metal body you should be able to hear the injectors hammer or buzz while cranking. If you don't, its possible that one half of the system relay or a terminal connecting spade inside the push on block may have gone tits up!

That would explain the positive side to the injectors and a bad ground one explain no juice to open them. A bad connection would shoot the two good relays idea in the foot!

If all this is good then I would be like you and be suspect that the ECU is not turning on the fuel system relay but those darn pumps run? Jeez, this is getting wacky all right!

I have another question... Do you write suspense stories as a hobby? (:-)

Phil

"In order to get around the ECS.... even though it should be hitting.
I believe if you can fool the ECU with a resistor that can be pushed in across the connectors terminals of the ECS wire. "

The wires in the ECT sensor connector lead to two different computers. The ICU thermistor and the ECU thermistor are referenced to ground through the body of the sensor and its contact with the head.

I suspect OP's diagnostic of the sensor may be faulty. The reason for that guess, is as I suggested earlier, if that was preventing starting, he would smell fuel.

Also, I worry after all that warning about Bentley errors, I see no concern by the OP, and you know where Bentley gets its info... from Volvo green books like the LH2.4 manual dated 12/88 (preliminary) available on k-jet.org. This one is full of mistakes, especially wire colors. It looks like a hasty one. The overall wiring diagram at the end is the most accurate of them.

So no, you can't fool the ECU by stuffing some resistor in the ECT's connector, on LH2.4/EZK cars.

I think your suggestion of using ether is a very good one, because nothing the OP has stated convinces me he has verified spark. It can be shot directly into the manifold via the fuel pressure regulator hose nipple. This is very basic trouble shooting most likely omitted as obvious in the Volvo trouble shooting flowcharts.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

What engineers say and what they mean by it:
"Not well defined."
Nobody has thought about it.

Hi Art,

I was not aware that the sensor fed signals to two different computers at the same time.
My thinking led me to believe that it only took one to do the whole job as they are talking to each other.

My mistake for not knowing better. When compared to you in the electronics business, I am like an ape holding onto the hood with one hand and using the other hand scratch the other end...ah ...of the car?

Would or could I be correct in saying that the resistance could be applied between the connectors terminals and the cylinder head to achieve a fixed reference signal to ground for both computers?

Phil

Hi Phil,

Why guess, suppose, and believe, when offering help? Have a look at the book.

The help you offered suggesting ether to check for missing fuel was great. Was that from experience? I guess our 2-year old dehumidifier does not have a full charge of 410A, but I doubt very much I will tap the $150 unit, pump down and recover the near-azeotropic refrigerant, and weigh it. I don't know (but I could guess) if there is such a thing as a piercing valve for the process tubes made to use for that kind of pressure, much less own a manifold gauge set and fittings rated 800 psig working. That too would be clear if I just took a look in the book (catalog).

Yes, substituting for the ECT with fixed value resistors could (would) function as you predict and wired as you suggest. I think it would be 10 times as awkward as repeating the measurements or swapping the part, which might could be available same day at a local auto parts store. Red herring, I think, given no mention of fuel smell.

Cheers,


--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

What engineers say and what they mean by it:
"The entire concept will have to be abandoned"
The only guy who understood the thing quit.

Hi again Art

To answer your question about suggesting ether was from experience was not from working Volvo's.
It was more like Briggs & Strattons and Harley Davidisons! Basic engines, made a basic men, created this basic man!

I agree with you that he has not confirmed spark! Others have worked on that with him before the ether test was suggested that pushes the arrow of which one is the problem, one way or the other.

Thanks for confirming that my idea would work but your right I have not had any reason to try the idea out! This is why I like the board others might have done it or will do what you did.

I have had no reasons to go play with the Volvo diagrams or books dealing with such matters.

After what you said about them, it would have frustrated me even more to have those color codes not be right too! Many will thank you but it will be untold to you! Teachers always wonder how some students do later in life. I am doing good Art!

I do not feel it would be ten times more awkward or harder to do something like what I mentioned but will agree except for the experience it would be a waste of time in a heartbeat!

I myself would use a resistance wheel or decade box in series and vary it around with a CO meter attached but I will probablby never be so inclined to do so as I'll never buy a CO meter.
I can make wheels but not reinvent them!

As far as your dehumidifier that is some reinventing of refrigerants that has been going on way too long.
Even R134 has put muck on their face. There has been a bunch of hush money spent on other types of refrigerant hazards too!
The EPA suckers are hiding behind all kinds of screens so there is no one finger going to get any one face, as of yet. I doubt there ever will be. The big government wheel just creaks onward!

Those boys of the forties knew about all these gases and worked to keep things simple and easier on building newer electric motors that lasted longer.
They knew what happens if separate gases are combined. Heck they also invented absorption systems along with using stainless steel.
Sure, they even found out about "too much pressure" in a hose filled with acetylene, accidentally!
R11 and R12 was done with refinement and testing. Sharp chemist!

As far as I can tell the whole situation in the trade is all about money and territory now-a-days. Marketing the crap on tricks of trick this or a trick like that and screw it being robust with enduring performance.
At $150 your at the mercy of manufacturers to deliver as specified now a days. Parts supplied from all over the world.


Those pressures you mention are a bit high for a dehumidifier operating at household room temperatures. There would be no need to watch head pressures only amperage draw upon recharge.
A person can always use flare fittings and 1/4 inch copper/ steel tubing to observe any pressures that a Bourdon tube gauge can be made to read.

As far as weighing the refrigerant in and out, I use an old refrigerant bottle and lots of ice. I evacuate it and use the ice or the compressor combination to get it into the bottle. Coldness, Gravity and time will do the job all by itself.

I don't know how you determined the efficiency of your unit to know if it's up to par?
It will say how many quarts of moisture it will remove per hour or day but you have to know that the relative humidity is constant in that area with what the air flow rate of replenishment is or not?
Will probably take more than just the sling psychrometer and laboratory conditions to prove it from your end.
How much time do you have on your hands Art ? 😰

Overall you are limited by the two coils sizes and the expansion device being cut to a proper length for your specific climate for the ideal amount of removal for wattage used. An adjustable expansion device unit is of course more bucks if it's even obtainable to home owners today? Maybe HVAC companies can rig a whole house unit up for Ya!


Yes, they do make clamp on piecing valves to access those copper process tubes and pinch off pliers to seal the ends before silver soldering them shut. I do not like leaving those valves on lines as they are always a possible leak (similar to ice maker taps-a-lines) and in some cases the weight of them can cause line cracking if they ever get to vibrating.
There are other tools but your right you need more units to work on to justify the expense.

I sure hope he gets his parts to throw at this car soon!
We sure have been tapping our keyboards in anticipation, have we not?


Phil

It seems strange, but I am experiencing the exact condition on my 86 245. Lots of rain here in the desert, hit a big water hazard. The car ran fine for two miles, but would not restart after sitting for 15 minutes. Fuel, spark, and timing belt are all where they are supposed to be, but even with a new cap and rotor, the car is firing out of time. I'm thinking possibly the Hall Sensor next, but am waiting to see what you might find with the brain trust of the Brickboard working with you. :)

Regards,

Well, mine is running! Praise God! I went ahead with a water pump change while the front cover was off, timing marks all good (new belt, tensioner, etc.). When I had this problem in the monsoon yesterday, I pulled another cap and rotor from the spare parts and installed them in the rain. As I was buttoning the old girl up, I noticed that I had placed the plug wires on one hole counterclockwise from where they were supposed to be. That was my basic problem besides the original moisture in the cap. I hope your is as easy as this one. (Although I feel kind of dumb!)

Regards,

"That was my basic problem besides the original moisture in the cap."

Yep. That's one of the first things one should check for, if there's been a change in humidity and temperature. A hint would be that you find condensation on the engine block when you lift the hood.
--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb, M46 trans, 3:31 dif, in Brampton, Ont.

Using a volt ohm meter, check the voltage on the primary side of the coil (terminal 15) while you or a helper bump the starter over. If you get a changing voltage, that should tell you the Crankshaft Position Sensor is good. It works in a similar manner as the Hall Effect Sensor on the older 240s by allowing the charge to build up in the ignition coil before collapsing and discharging through the coil wire to the distributor.

Hello,

Not to meddle with 200 series forum but I might share something here.

"Pulling the plugs they looked and smelled a bit wet"

Are you running Bosch Platinum plugs by the way? These plugs may have tiny carbon deposits on the tiny platinum wire (within the white porcelain tip) enough to cause misfiring or no start. Replace with the usual copper plugs.


Other than that:

1. Check the valve clearances just in case they don't close properly. Worn cam lobes usually not an issue with our red blocks but check it just in case it happens due to poor lubrication during previous ownership.

2. Might have to pull out all the fuel injectors by the rail (all still attached to rail but out of the manifold), start the engine (disconnect the ignition coil wiring first) and run the fuel pump via jumper - to see if the injectors spray properly (to rule out injector blockage).

Put each injector in emptied plastic water bottles. All the injectors should spray together because this is 'batch injection' not 'sequential injection' in much more recent cars. While you're at it you may measure each injector's fuel output for smooth running later on. Differences shouldn't be more than 10% to each other.

Regards,
Amarin.

If it gets down to this, and you decide to see the volume from the injectors, don't start the engine (nor crank the starter) to have the injectors activated. When removing the rail's attachment to the manifold, make sure to re-connect the ECU ground wires at the rail bolts, jumper the fuses (4-6) to run the pumps, turn the key to KP-II (don't crank) and use the OBD's actuator test mode (read about this in the FAQs or google OBD 240 Volvo) as this is the same 240 or 740.

OP, this thread seems to have a mirror on TB in which the suggestion "As in, got gas in your tank?" might be an embarrassingly simple question, but one I should have asked last week before suggesting a $100 tow. Get a can of ether and see if it runs on that for a few seconds.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

Deja Moo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before.

Hello,

Thanks Art! I forgot about that easier OBD function : )

Regards,
Amarin.

GAs tank is nearly full. ( I am also posting this issue on TB because not everybody looks at both sites...) I was thinking of pulling injectors. BUt first I have this info...

I have been going thru the Bently manual diagnostic/ fault finding procedures starting on page 280-10 and have a few questions...

1. where exactly(pic if anybody has one) is the inline fuse called out in step 1. I cannot seem to find it. All the book says is "LH fender". What does it do?
2. On step 3, I do not get power to terminal 6 on the ECU connector.
3. Step 4, I do not get ground at pin 14 of ECU connector.
4. Step 6, I get throttle switch click, but no change in continuity as called out in manual.
5. Step 7, I am not getting the 0.1v called for on terminal 8. I am getting some voltage, but not anywhere near that. 0.02v if I remember correctly.

So all this adds up to some sort of wiring dilemma I would think. Perhaps there is on connector or junction where all this comes together in common?

I have not got a decent wiring diagram, SO i am somewhat in the dark here. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Guessing Bentley has thrown you a curve again by calling the ICU an ECU. Sure they could defend this, but tell me, which unit were you testing? Looked to me as if you are on the spark path replying to my fuel suggestion.

joekidd has a good suggestion if you're not sure of spark; the spade connectors on the coil are prone to oxidation, as are the terminals in the harness connector right below the coil.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

A group of chess enthusiasts checked into a hotel and were standing in the lobby discussing their recent tournament victories. After about an hour, the manager came out of the office and asked them to disperse "But why," they asked, as they moved off. "Because", he said, "I can't stand chess-nuts boasting in an open foyer."

Was testing the Jetronic module harness in regards to the Bentley info provided.

I have tried cleaning the coil contacts, thought I will look at the others you have mentioned as well.

Is there any chance that a bad coolant temp sensor would cause all this mess? I am currently going thru the green LH2.4 book and the check for the CTS comes up open on my meter. Rang out the wiring to the ECU from the sensor and have continuity. Thoughts? Seems like a stretch to me but at this point I'd believe in Santa again if you told me he was going to come by and fix this paperweight!

If you have an open ECT sensor (there are two halves to it) and you wait for Santa time, it might indeed fix things. If the sensor is open, the computer thinks it is dead of winter above the arctic circle and pours on the fuel. Your nose should tell you if that's the case.

I can't remember any more where I was leading you, but I don't think we were testing the fuel computer's wiring -- seemed like you were going through spark tests. Keep your focus and train of thought linear and you'll eventually beat this without calling a pro.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

Mistakes are the portals of discovery. -James Joyce

[Quote: the65 dartguy1]

"1. where exactly(pic if anybody has one) is the inline fuse called out in step 1. I cannot seem to find it. All the book says is "LH fender". What does it do?"


I don't believe the blade type fuse that you are looking for was used on the 92 Model 240.
It was moved inside the passenger's compartment and occupies position 6 (counting down from the top) in the fuse panel beside the drivers left knee.

I've never owned a 92 Model, but I did own a 91 Model that had the fuse under the hood.
I think that the 240 models later than 92 have the fuse located under the hood again.

If I'm wrong someone will correct me.

steve

Hi Steve,

You're right, there's no fuse under the hood in a 92. Are you sure that was a '91 you owned? Some detail about that fuse is here: Main Fuse for Engine Management Systems

Also, OP, the Bentley checks may be steering you toward the wrong conclusions:

Bentley Errata Update

Not sure if they apply to each and every one of your steps. I will get time to look them up later.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

Two Innuit people sitting in a kayak were chilly, so they lit a fire in the craft. Unsurprisingly it sank, proving once again that you can't have your kayak and

heat it too.

"You're right, there's no fuse under the hood in a 92. Are you sure that was a '91 you owned?" Quote Art Benstein

Yes, I have owned a 91 Model 240....but...
I confused it with a 86 Model that I also owned at the same time.
I now drive a 87 Model 240 and it definitely has the blade fuse under the hood.

steve

Check(corrosion) and clean the connectors and wires on the coil

Also forgot to add that I have tried using a 937 ECU in place of the white 561 my car has. Also no dice.

Check the fuel relay...above the right front passenger's knee, under the panel.

Also check fuses #4 and 6 (count down from the top).

steve

I have tried two different relays, no love. I can hear the pump prime when key is first turned on.
There is spark on the plugs and they have been cleaned off.
Fuses4&6 are good, even wiggled them around to make sure there was good contact. Also tried to jumper between them on the left side as suggested elsewhere on the net to bypass the relay. Also no love.

Ok...lets dig a little deeper

Without trying to start the engine....and with the parking brake on.
Connect a jumper wire between the fuse terminal of fuse #4 and #6.
The fuel pump(s) should run and remain running as long as the jumper is connected.

Remove the fuel cap and use a short piece of hose to listen for the buzzing of the in-tank pump.
Lay on your back, under the car in front of the left rear wheel and listen for the main fuel pump. It's about midway across the bottom of the car.
You should hear both pumps.

Pull a spark plug and ground the threaded part to the intake manifold.
Try to start the engine while watching for spark at the spark plug.
You should see a good blue spark.
Replace the spark plug.

If you have spark, and the fuel pumps are running the engine should start.

If it still refuses to start, I would pull the cover from the timing belt and check that the belt hasn't jumped timing.

If still no go, I would check the fuel pressure at the fuel rail with the pumps jumpered.

hope this helps
steve

I put a pressure gauge on the rail yesterday and got 40 something PSI when the key first switched on. I shut it down quick because my testing rig leaks pretty bad so I didn't want to start making a mess/ hazard.
I can hear the main pump prime when the key is first turned, I haven't tried to listen for the in tank one yet. I will try that later. I have verified spark previously.

Timing cover is off and with the engine set to #1 TDC everything pretty much lines up. (The cam dot is about 1/2 of a tooth off from the marking on the back cover, but I doubt very much that would cause a complete no-run situ.)

Hi there

I have been looking over the several posts from some of the best people on the board. There is not much left to talk about that has not already been mentioned.

So I decided I would throw in my two cents worth on this post about the timing belt.

I personally do not like the idea that the cam is off any or a half tooth as you say.

This engine covers make it hard to do an accurate check by just judging the cam notch. By my thinking if its showing up off, that's too much.

Since this problem raised its ugly head in one overnite session I want to dig deeper into the belt idea. The ECS would enrichen the fuel but it should start, if you hold the throttle wide open and it will run like crap.

I have heard that 92 or 93 use a rounded tooth belt and sprockets. That in itself is not an issue in about what I am about to suggest.
What I am suggesting is belt tension slack developing a little more quickly after initial run-in.
All of the radiuses of the belt cannot and will not be perfect and therefore seat in over and over many times. As the belt does this it warms up and gets longer as well.
With all this going on the procedure to readjust the tension is more important.

Since the happen directly after a shutdown raises up my eyebrows.
You see when an engine shuts down and the pistons come to their final resting point all of them will seek the middle of their strokes of equilibrium! Most against compression and mass deacceleration.

In some cases the engine rotates backwards to achieve this. This is where a slack timing belt comes into play.
A belt is like a chain it does not wear evenly in tension either!
The belts propensity to flutter is always there even though it maybe minute between pulleys

The right combination of loose spot and the engine backing up, you have BINGO! It has slipped!
Which pulley or how many is the unknown but in my book any...anywhere, is not proper.

I just think that you should rethink this theory somewhat and the circumstances of how this all started. Between what you saw, what PAGEDA wrote that made you look and my guessing about all of this you might give it a SHOT.

You mention paperweight, so if you cannot get it running maybe you could sell to a gun club for pellets.(:)

Hope you find the problem!
Phil

I wasn't sure of this either, so I re-timed the engine and its still a no-go. I will keep you guys posted as events unfold. (or don't)

I am sure guessing with you on this too!

The last time this happen to me it was a bad rotor button. The resistor opened up on the inside.

It looked good and even tested with an ohmmeter as it might could pass the spark.

I changed it out with a new one and it fired right up.

It is tricky to test those varmints as you have to confirm spark past two components that are between to wires times four.
Unless you you park the rotor under one wire in the cap and plug wire "specifically"

You can jump power straight to the coil and break the coils ground circuit. This will test with a spark all the way to the plug.

That's why I carry a spare rotor in the spare tire cover in the trunk anymore! Its easier.
The last poster got me to thinking about this as a cause.

If the rotor or coil wire has stopped working it kills all four wires. If the cap has a problem it usually causes misfires to only one plug at a time due to cracks or moisture.

Do have another running setup available?

Phil

I have swapped out the cap & rotor already with no luck.

I have run the whole green book LH 2.4 troubleshooting guide. Everything tested OK except for the coolant temp sensor. That sensor is showing open ( no resistance) but the wires check good. I have one on order, hopefully it arrives this week. I have my doubts whether it'll fix it however. After that, I am at a complete loss. I have ordered a bunch of other parts that are the usual suspects. We shall see!

Have you checked the timing mark on the half-shaft? With the engine at TDC make sure that the distributer is pointing at #1 cylinder. I had a no-start condition on my '90 240 that I found the half-shaft had jumped a tooth or two. Would only cause no-start condition when cold but would run great when warm. Was arcing like crazy in the distributor cap - all kinds of carbon trails in there.

Ok pull the vaccum line off the fuel pressure regulator and check for fuel in that line.

Also did that, looks dry. Could an ECU/EZK failing do this? My thought is no due to the presence of spark and fuel....

I know certain yrs and pink labeled ones and others can have problems not sure about the 92 though. Might want to take a look at yours and get the numbers off of it. Reseat the main connector check for any damage or corrosion. Also check all pins on AMM and connector as well. There must be a way to reset it as well. On the 85-88 just pulling the 25amp fuse for 30 seconds does it. check the FAQs here for more info on good and or bad ECUs

You might try a new Bosch cap and rotor. How old are the plug wires?
Dan

Already did cap & rotor. Plug wires are a few years old, may try those next. I should check resistance on them, but I sincerely doubt they are the culprit. The oddest part about this whole thing is the car ran great until this, never hard to start, always idled properly etc. It gave me no warning that there was about to be an issue. This makes me think something electrical just stopped or became disconnected somehow.

you may have reduced compression due to excess unburned fuel washing down the cylinders. Plugs may be fouled with excess fuel and unable to fire.

Dan

How does "spark seems good" Take an old plug, pull a wire plug in and crank. See if you actually have spark across the electrode or not? Sure sounds like you do not. Plug wires are good for 100k easily as long as they are not corroded.

Disconnect AMM and see if starts and stays running.

It does not. Tried that too but thanks!

Check to see if the camshaft is turning, may be a broken / stripped timing belt.
Dan

Dan,

Belt is turning and in fact only about two months old. Have you ever s
known of these motors to jump time?

Yes they will jump so it is a good idea to check it for correct belt timing.
Dan

Timing appears to be correct. Spark seems good as well. We are getting fuel on the plugs.
I'm really at a loss this time, for all intents & purposes, this thing should run!