posted by
someone claiming to be Rick
on
Mon Oct 11 17:14 CST 2021 [ RELATED]
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I competed a complete rebuild of my 1971 1800E this spring and it is stock specification except the the head has been ported and comprssion ratio reduced from 10.5 to 9.5:1. Otherwise it is running the D-spec cam. The first 500 miles of use were for break-in. I have installed a wide band O2 sensor to run trails. I've done all the background tests on the temp sensors, MAP, set the idle fuel cut off switch. Fuel pressure is at 28psi. I had the injectors flow tested and they all all good (38 lbs). Engine starts and basically runs well, with two exceptions 1. idle mixture is too rich, 11:1, so very lumping idle and difficulty maintain idle speed (tends to load up). I have the ECU idle adjustment all the way lean, counter clockwise and is will respond to adjustments but it only get's richer. 2. When I run the engine WOT it will go lean, like 15:1 or 16.1 above 3000rpm. So it lacks power.
I've added fuel pressure up to 32 psi and it may slightly help at higher rpm's, but then the idle is more rich than it is now.
I've adjusted the screw in the MAP sensor, but it is currently all the way out. If I turn in, which is the lean direction, it does help the idle mixture, but then the car is 17-18:1 AFR and will hardly accelerate. MAP sensor is 430 ohms and holds vacuum.
So what am I missing? How can I enrichen WOT and not enrichen it at idle?
Thanks.Rick
PS, I tried to sign up but it never sent me a password to log on
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Pull the MPS apart & check that the rod in the coil end moves freely & the spring is not broken. Also check that the aneroid has not failed.
The P.N. on the MPS would be handy to check that it's not of a B30E/F or from another car like a Citroën or Merc.
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Part numbers on the MPS & ECU would be handy. Is the MPS still riveted together?
Cam is wrong for compression.
The idle mixture on the ECU working suggests the throttle position switch is working. Staying with D, K or VV-61 cams generally means the ECU knob works fine.
Are the spark plugs BLACK when idling & driving below 3000rpm? Are you choking on fumes? I'm questioning the O2 meter, but it definitely sounds like your idle side is functioning.
Which screw are you adjusting, the little central one or the big bung?
Have you got a fuel pressure gauge fitted to know that the pressure is being maintained above 3000rpm?
Is the head genuinely stock? A well ported head coupled with a 2.125" or larger exhaust system will use more fuel than you can get out of D-Jet, but that shouldn't cause idle woes.
And I probably should have asked this 1st, but is the ignition system good?
10°@ Idle, progressing to 32° Maximum BEFORE 3000rpm & staying there.(I fitted a 2nd hand MSD unit once, all seemed fine, but the timing retarded progressively as it was revved up.)
How do you know it's a D cam? When I was a teenager I had a cam with 8 great lumps on it in my B18B. No guts, but it could scream. When I got a degree wheel & dial indicator it was 240°@.050" & .298" lobe lift, this is 20° bigger & no way would it ever work with D-Jet. Turns out it was a very good regrind of a good D cam without any other numbers punched in to it.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Rick
on
Wed Oct 20 08:55 CST 2021 [ RELATED]
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B20Paul, those all all good questions, which I will basically answer as yes, have confirmed cam (new and checked timing and lift events during engine build), have new 123 Ignition distributor and checked timing and advance, head is not stock, it is ported and compression ration lowered to 9.5:1, so this is a disclosure I did not make. Fuel pressure I checked at all speeds under load, and this is now at 30psig vs 28psig.
So now I have determined that I have an incorrect MAP sensor for a VW Type 3 1.6L
So have to assume this is my root problem. After I find the correct one, (can you recommend a source?) then I will hopefully have better WOT fuel delivery. Yes, because of the ported head, I may still need more fuel at higher RPM but will cross that bridge at that time.
AEM wide band O2 sensor is quite good to help monitor engine operating AFR.
If you check my first response to C1800 I listed MAP and ECU part numbers there
Thanks. Awesome that everyone offered their advise.
Rick
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Rick, glad you found the problem.
MAP available here:
http://irollmot.ipower.com/oscom/index.php?cPath=26_32&sort=3a&page=2
Have you determined what your ECU is actually for?
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posted by
someone claiming to be Rick
on
Wed Oct 20 17:05 CST 2021 [ RELATED]
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c1800, OK, thanks for that link to pressure sensor. There is a 010 ('70) and 015 ('71) available. Think you or someone already suggested one vs the other is calibrated richer, but can't find that response now. Technically, my car was built Nov. 70 but titled as '71
Bosch Reman sticker has covered the stamped-in part number on the ECU case, so I will determine what that's hiding.
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"Technically, my car was built Nov. 70 but titled as '71"
AS with most manufacturers in that Era, the next year model production was started in the latter part of the preceding year. My '71E was reported OK in September of '70. As I understand it the Volvo factory shut down in August, when most of the employees took their summer holiday, and the next years production started in September.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Rick
on
Thu Oct 21 17:24 CST 2021 [ RELATED]
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Right, I guess this follows same pattern of US OEMs starting the next Model Year in late Aug. or Sept. of prior year.
Ordered a used but tested MPS from Don Thibideau at P1800.com. Fingers crossed this will help my issue. Thanks for your advice to date.
Cheers
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Have you got it yet?
The old MPS will make for good spare parts, the only part that changes in it is the aneroid. 99% of the time the diaphram is the part that fails & even some of those can be fixed with silicone.
They are EASY to adjust, but they don't supply enough fuel for anything more than a D cam & stock intake port. OTOH, you can lean the part throttle out & squeak more MPG out of them.
Cheers,
Paul.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Rick
on
Wed Nov 17 18:22 CST 2021 [ RELATED]
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Sorry, lost track of my posting.
Yes, I received the correct part number, used, MPS (MAP) from Don at P1800.com.
So this replaced the VW MPS, but was not noticeable different after driving. In the meantime read one of the links I think you sent me from a Porsche 914 group which described how to remove the full stop cover screw and adjust the inner screw settings. I did 13 separate adjustments and test drives and found a setting that gives 12:1 at WOT and 14 to 15:1 when cruising around. Even though the idle is still fat at 12:1. It idles well and drivability is good. Also, I had recently installed a 123 dizzy and have this set on a curve that I can use full vacuum advance, which I plumbed from a tee in the MPS hose. So it sees vacuum at part throttle and idle.
So right now pretty happy how this is driving. Thanks again for your help.
Rick
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Hi Rick,
Interesting exercise. I did install an AFR as well from Innovate.
You mentioned 12:1 at WOT and 14 to 15:1 when cruising around.
Did you experience any particular differences in AFR depending on the RPM? How about the different gears?
WOT at my car starts at 12 and ends up at 14 in 2-3 seconds
Between 3rd, 4rd, 5th gear is about 0.2 difference, depending on speed.
Any details appreciated!
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Did you return the fuel pressure to stock?
Did you get a programable 123, or the 1st version?
If you have V1, the only useful setting is for B20E/F, I'd use that on B18B & B20B's & then the curve is still too slow.
(The advance curves are designed for 1960's fuel quality.)
The only curves with vacuum advance are B18A & B20A, the rest have retard & the B18B had none at all.
I'm also wondering does the 123 D-Jet part work correctly? Putting the stock distributor back in 1st might have been the 1st thing to do to fix a D-Jet problem.
Also, 9.5:1 compression? I'm assuming you want to run on the lowest octane possible?
I'd like to see you get a dial indicator & degree wheel & verify that it is in fact a D cam & close to degreed in properly. Following the Greenbook method would be OK if you don't want to go to 'the hassle', BUT, the inlet system from the start of the manifold to the combustion chamber & the cam inlet duration & LSA are set in stone in the VE curve of the D-Jet box.
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Paul, it sounds like you’ve dug into the MPSs a time or two. Maybe sometime you could write down a disassembly/repair/reassembly procedure…. With photos? Not that I need it myself at the moment, but that day could come. With the cost of good working units gone through the roof I think more and more people will be wanting to try DIY repairs.
Now if we could just figure out how to repair the idle air bypass valves. But that may be a bit more challenging??
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Did this car get fixed?
Mr Mullet: I've found my herbed up MPS, but can't find my spares, but I've not forgotten it.
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"...I've not forgotten it...."
Not a problem. Please don't burn valuable time messing with it when I'm sure you've got bigger fish to fry.
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I've got the altered one, having trouble laying my hands on a stock one.
My herbed up one has silicon slightly sucked through the crack in the diaphram, but I want to make a slide show of modifying one from stock or cracked.
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I can lay my hands on my herbed up MPS from my old 164, I'll see what I can do.
I'm sure I've see a rebuilt warm up air valve if that's what you are reffering to. Mine use to half work, so I throttled it back by sticking a short piece of 6mm fuel hose up one of the hoses to it.
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no text.
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Have you done any sort of testing of the throttle position switch? It sounds like it’s triggering the idle position OK as you say the idle mixture screw on the ECU is effective. However it might not be making good contact at the higher (full throttle) position. It also needs to make-and-break the 19 times as you advance the throttle plate open.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Rick
on
Wed Oct 20 08:42 CST 2021 [ RELATED]
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Chris, thanks, I did check the TPS. Disassembled and cleaned the contact surfaces, etc.. However, as I understand it's function, besides the idle position and fuel cutoff, it's function is to add incremental fuel enrichment during acceleration. I.e. each increment on contact made adds an additional injector pulse (all injectors). This seems to work, as when under load, I can witness richer AFR during throttle opening. I didn't think the last contact at WOT maintains any additional fuel enrichment. I have read later D-jet TPS incorporated an added contact for WOT position that the 1800E does not have.
Anyway, C1800 steered me to confirm which MAP I was using, and it was not for an 1800E. You can read elsewhere in my replies. Thanks. Rick
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Rick;
You understand function of the TPS correctly.
Volvo specified TPS does not have a WOT contact, but the TPS specified for Cadillac and other models which does have a WOT contact CAN be used in the Volvo application (the TPS connector in the Volvo application is a 4 Pin connector which simply ignores this fifth pin).
See also: https://www.sw-em.com/bosch_d-jetronic_injection.htm#reference_information_tps
Cheers
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posted by
someone claiming to be Rick
on
Wed Oct 20 16:38 CST 2021 [ RELATED]
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Thanks, great information. Feels like a 3 credit course in D-Jet 101. Think I have 15 tabs open in my browser! All helpful. Thanks.
Basically, I need to obtain the correct MPS (not MAP), then see what happens. But not convince this will resolve the problem. Seems to me that a WOT signal from either MPS would be perceived by ECU the same for injector opening. But if the output of the MPS differs for the specific engine application, then that could be the difference. I'll keep reading and maybe answer my own question.
Cheers
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HiRick, a couple observations. The 28psi spec was updated by Volvo in a service bulletin many years ago to 30 psi. Apparently breaking the seal and adjusting the MAP is a no-no. Do you have the correct MAP? Do you have the FI Fault tracing manual?
https://volvo1800pictures.com/document/fuel_injection_fault_tracer/fuel_injection_fault_tracing.pdf
Try this website. You can sign up and ask in the forum your question. They will answer in English. There’s a ton of info on there. Make sure you click on the British flag in the top right hand corner to read in English.
https://jetronic.org/en/d-jetronic
Both of those sources have been a great help on my ‘71 E. I don’t experience loss of power above 3000rpm, but I don’t have an AFR meter.
I recall reading that Djet tends to run lean on our volvos.
Good luck, and keep us posted.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Rick
on
Wed Oct 20 08:03 CST 2021 [ RELATED]
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Hi, was out of town last week and suddenly noticed all the responses. So thanks.
Hey, I guess if I have VW MAP for a Type 3 1.6L, then possibly this wouldn't run correctly? Duh! Thanks for asking me to check this and it goes together with a number of questionable solutions I've found on this car!
So was able to confirm the p/n on jetronic.org. So I will need to locate a Volvo MAP p/n 241725, Bosch 0280 100 010. Any sources for this MAP that you can recommend?
I just sent email to https://fuelinjectioncorp.com/ to ask if they can use the VW MAP as a core to rebuild. Any readers with experience with this company?
Also, will need to confirm my ECU as well. According to jectronic.org, it should have a Bosch 0280 0000 009 or 017. What I have is a Bosch remanufactured 0280 000 017 090.
Rick
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Technically, your car came with a "015" VPS, but the "010" is calibrated for a richer mixture.
The "017" is the correct ECU and a plus if it's a Bosch reman.
--
Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90502
hiperformanceautoservice.com or oldvolvosonly.com
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posted by
someone claiming to be Rick
on
Wed Oct 20 17:17 CST 2021 [ RELATED]
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Hi Eric, my car's VIN plate has build date of Nov70, so maybe 010 was it's original MPS? Anyway, I have choice to buy a rebuilt MPS 010 and 015 here:
http://irollmot.ipower.com/oscom/index.php?cPath=26_32&sort=3a&page=2
Would you suggest I choose the 010?
Also have choice to get sensor rebuilt by
https://fuelinjectioncorp.com/products/pressure-sensors/
But think I do not have the correct core, have sent them an inquiry. They are in CA, just wondering if you have dealt with them previously?
Thanks. Rick
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Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse.
Volvo calls the part a "pressure sensor" in both the repair and parts manuals and I've always called it a vacuum pressure sensor hence the VPS reference. So just another name for the MPS, manifold pressure sensor.
Volvos built after August are usually called the next years model, so the "015" is probably the original 1 for your car. I hesitate to recommend 1 over the other as your engine doesn't have the stock compression and to complicate things, you can't get the same octane gas as Volvo suggested back then nor was there ethanol added.
Most if not all of the Bosch long part numbers have 10 digits and the part number on the reman sticker is correct if you omit the last 3 digits and I bet you'll find the same 10 digits stamped into the case of the ECU.
I use FIC to rebuld my customers VPS/MPS and in fact I just got an "035" back from them for a customer's 1973 1800ES last week.
--
Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90502
hiperformanceautoservice.com or oldvolvosonly.com
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posted by
someone claiming to be Rick
on
Fri Oct 22 19:20 CST 2021 [ RELATED]
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Eric, not a problem. Appreciate all your input so far. I ordered a used and tested MPS/VPS if I didn't mention that already. Will post here after I try this out. Rick
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posted by
someone claiming to be Rick
on
Wed Oct 20 16:44 CST 2021 [ RELATED]
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Planetman, thanks. Just to confirm, did you mean MPS instead of VPS, or is this another acronym I need to know? Had to learn it's a MPS, not a MAP! :-)
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“ Also, will need to confirm my ECU as well. According to jectronic.org, it should have a Bosch 0280 0000 009 or 017. What I have is a Bosch remanufactured 0280 000 017 090.”
Hi again, AFAIK ECU numbers have 10 digits, not 11 or 13. The reman one you quote has the first 10 digits correct. Wondering if the 090 was added when it was rebuilt? Is this the part number engraved on the case, or on a sticker?
Since the first 10 digits are correct, I suspect it might be ok, you’ll know when you get a new MAP installed.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Rick
on
Wed Oct 20 16:12 CST 2021 [ RELATED]
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HI, yes this is a Bosch sticker applied over the stamped number in the cover. I can only make out the 0, first digit and 7 as the last digit. If I could post an image here, I would. Since you got me wondering, will try to determine the full part number that sticker is covering. Thanks. Rick
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Some more reading, note the comment about air leaks.
http://www.vclassics.com/archive/efi.htm
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A bit of a shot in the dark, have you checked your coolant temperature sensor for correct ohm values?
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posted by
someone claiming to be Rick
on
Wed Oct 20 08:15 CST 2021 [ RELATED]
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Just to give you a response here. Yes, I did this early on, and the air temp sensor. They were good. You prompted me to identify issue as the MAP now.
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Rick;
I does sound like you have done all the right things from your listing of the pre-conditions...and like C1800, the first thing I thought of was the influence on mixture, of the two thermal sensors (Coolant Temp, Intake Air Temp). You also did not mention to what extent the Cold Start Valve was checked for possible leakage/weepage (which at Idle would make more of a difference).
You should be able to set the Idle...from '71, the CO Adjustment Pot was added to the ECU, but that can only be used to adjust Idle CO, when Throttle Position Switch is adjusted correctly (first!), and 17(Idle) has continuity to 14(Chassis) at Throttle shaft fully closed (shaft CW). (Ref my notes on the TPS here: https://www.sw-em.com/bosch_d-jetronic_injection.htm#reference_information_tps )
I also agree with C1800's recommendation to visit the https://jetronic.org/en/d-jetronic site and learn from all you can from the info already there, and possible posts and dialog with Dr. D-Jet (Volker). He is a highly experienced expert on the system!
I am currently in a '73 ES recommissioning mode, so would like to ask who checked your injectors for you, ask about your experience, and if you recommend them...I need to have this service performed also, so I know where I stand with them...
Please let us know how you make out!
Good Hunting!
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posted by
someone claiming to be Rick
on
Wed Oct 20 08:31 CST 2021 [ RELATED]
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Ron, thanks. Yes, I went through the list of items you mentioned already but C1800 helped me determine I'm running an incorrect MAP sensor. MAP I have is for a VW Type 3 1.6L!
I would recommend https://www.cruzinperformance.com/ to test your injector. You get a downloadable copy of the test results.
Email Rich Jensen at rich@cruzinperformance.com just to check what his work load is like and he'll review the services offered. He was very nice, didn't charge me for service I didn't need and turned the parts around as promised.
Rick
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