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So with all of your help I got my timing belt lined up and the engine ran.
I let it go for a day or two and came back and it ran but this was the first time I ran it for a longer period and it didn't seem to idle well then after 3-6 minutes of idling it would stall out.
I ran it like that for 5-6 times to confirm my AMM was getting learned by the ECU.
I've just put this engine in recently so I have a clean throttle body, new plugs, new RPM sensor, clean flame trap, and associated plastic box under flame trap, injectors are all clicking and fuel pumps are working.
After checking the compression I noticed all 5 new spark plugs I had installed were now blackened with a dry black soot.
I assume this is from running rich - is that a good assumption?
I've already swapped in an AMM I had that was marked "known good" and disconnected battery so computer would relearn it.
Still no change
I know some things I need to check but what order should I check the following items in:
ECT sensor
ECU
FPR
Fuel pressure (I need to figure out what adapters I need to attach the tester)
TPS
So far no CEL unless I unplug the AMM
Any other things I should check?
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2 1990 Volvo 240s - 1 is my son's sedan the other my 245 in restoration, 1 1999 S70 is my current daily driver until I can get back into the 245!
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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Okay I think I figured out why the car is stalling. I had the EGR vacuum tubes plugged into the wrong connections on the vacuum booster.
Unfortunately in the process the car wouldn't start again (so I can't test it out) I looked at the timing belt and the the belt is tight and lined up on the camshaft and the crankshaft but the rotor is pointed 90° away from position one when crank and cam are at TDC. So either the belt slipped off the intermediate shaft or my distributor is not connected right inside the engine??? if that's possible?
What do you guys think?
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2 1990 Volvo 240s - 1 is my son's sedan the other my 245 in restoration, 1 1999 S70 is my current daily driver until I can get back into the 245!
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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Hi Stackerjack,
If you haven't sorted this out yet, I think you should look at your FPR. If it fails, as mine did, in a manner that is not letting any gas return to the tank, the full pump pressure will be acting on the injectors. I've read somewhere that it can be over 100 PSI. That will give you a rich mixture, rough running, and sooty plugs and tailpipe.
It will also cause stalling at idle because the main fuel pump overheats, and trips a thermal breaker inside. The pump relies on the circulation of fuel to keep it cool. In my case the car would not stall if run above 30 MPH, but at idle it would die after 3 or 4 minutes, then restart after a few minutes wait.
If you don't have a pressure gauge, try putting your hand on the fuel pump after it stalls to determine if it's heating up. Another test is to remove the fuel return line and see if it's dry. A restricted return line will cause the same condition, so blowing through it should produce bubbling sounds in the fuel tank.
If you don't have a spare FPR to swap in, buy an aftermarket one on Ebay for about $15. I've got 40k miles so far on the one I bought 4 years ago. It's a very simple part.
regards, Peter .
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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Thanks Peter
I've measured the fuel pressure at 43.5 psi at the connection for the cold start injector. I may measure it again while I have my friend mechanic's gauge.
I will try blowing out the fuel return hose and listening for bubbling in the fuel tank.
I have a spare FPR so I will swap that out as well
I've moved my thread to the latest (but slightly different) version of the same problem (see "post after long absence' which provides some more detailed info regarding my problem)
Thanks Peter!
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2 1990 Volvo 240s - 1 is my son's sedan the other my 245 in restoration, 1 1999 S70 is my current daily driver until I can get back into the 245!
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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Hi,
I think you are right on target with your experiences.
I haven’t ever had an issue with that. I have check one car once and heard bubbles if I used compressed air or you will need very good hearing. Back then mine weren’t that good.
I have read in manuals about the importance of having a clear return line all the way to the tank.
No details past that.
It sure would explain all of his issues pretty well in one fell swoop.
I’m sure this can help everyone that reads your post.
Thanks
Phil
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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Hi John,
Boy you are sure having some moments of contemplation with your engine.
If you engine has an EGR it does not have a vacuum booster of in the older retarded days of trying to make the engine run delayed or backwards to get cleaner emissions they used what was called a vacuum amplifier. It was basically a source vacuum pulling on a larger diaphragm to increase the amount of air displacement when it moved.
On this car there is no such thing unless you consider the very large brake booster behind the master cylinder.
What you are putting those two line onto is nothing more than a vacuum switch controlled by the ECU.
The ECU turns on the EGR during idle moments and it watches for a temperature change from a sensor in the EGR valve. If it does not see one in a certain time limit there should be a CELight to come on.
I bought a used car for a very respectable price because an independent mechanic kept charging the PO for other things so the PO got to where “shel would rather make car payments.
The switch will have one line to go to the top of the valve and is white in color. That line goes to the intake manifold over behind the throttle body via a rubber elbow.
The second line is yellow and goes on the bottom of the switch. It goes to the EGR vacuum diaphragm.
The switch only fails if it cannot vent that EGR line to atmosphere to resetting the EGR closed.
If the EGR stays open the engine will not idle correctly.
That could be a reason for your issue.
I don’t know what years the CEL’s started, so you may not get an indication of it’s operating or not.
My 1991 has it and cause that car to be up for sale in California.
Now as far as the distributor being 90 degrees out or on the wrong cylinder makes no difference in reality.
It just spins but where the wires are placed in the cap will make a difference.
Now with that said, the ECU might care as for the breathing sequence of cylinders that it is TUNED to and correctly adjust each mixtures to a protocol.
Oh boy in trouble now!
I’m thinking out side of the box here and the problem with that can be with how many corridors are outside.
Each corridor can have lots of doors to open. Every one should know where that can lead too.
I want to say that the timing belt would have a very hard time jumping off the intermediate sprocket.
I will say that the distributor can be indexed off one terminal location but moving the Number one wire to spot next door and then the sequence from there will make no difference as the distributor couldn’t care less?
That locating the number one as numbers on a clock is a state of mind only as long as you get the spark there. Who ever said 12 O’ clock has to be at the top or a watch can only be worn on the left arm.
Especially if there is no winding stem?
What may have happened is the flywheel got indexed off and so moving the wires accordingly got it have right? Easier than going under the car to rearrange the flywheel.
I still have no good answer for the engine running for “X” minutes and just turning off?
I already mentioned the ECUs programming. ???
Phil
Phil
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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Hi,
You need to find out how great of condition the your ignition system is in.
Having soot deposited on brand new plugs is not normal unless you have the wrong heat range plugs in there or not a very good spray pattern from the injectors.
As I remember, I think you said the car sat for a long time and the engine is fairly new to the body.
Maybe the octane factor is low if there’s old gasoline churning through the pumps. That would affect the spray patterns.
The next thing to observe is the amount of time it takes for the engine to shut down as the ECU can do this with fairly precise timing in it doesn’t get proper feed back from a few sensors. It can initiate a shutdown for lack of a proper signal like from the CPS.
If you have a timing light put it on there to see if you are losing ignition spark as if the key was turned off and back on. I had a module on my old Ford truck do that while traveling down the road.
I recently had an issue with my 1993 doing something similar after thinking and having a bad in-tank fuel pump. The car would only run for a shot time and die. It wasn’t the pumps shutting off.
I change out the CPS and nothing changed but I caught the ignition dropping off with a timing light.
I then went to the middle man with great suspicion. It’s call the ignition relay module behind the battery.
I then remembered that when I got the car the connector on that item was busted and I had jury rigged a wire tie to hold it to the module since the spring clip was gone.
The Previous Owners mechanics must have buggered it up in the past.
I replace the connector from another harness I acquired later and thought it as a great thing to correct no matter what.
But it did the same thing again. This gremlin would shut down the engine just about precisely 30 seconds after starting during it warming up stage. The ECU is critical about emissions sometimes but I don’t remember getting a code for anything. I assume you do not have an EGR light either?
The ECU has a programed sequence of steps from start to finally warmed up. It looks for perimeters to be so-so, I’m thinking?
Well, I thought why couldn’t the middleman have a fault of just turning off like my old Ford Module?
I decided to change it out.
It has to work precisely in order to provide proper timing to the coil.
Maybe it’s malfunctioning OR the ECU is not good with it doing something some time or another?
Got it replaced and lo and behold the engine just kept on running and running! No more shut downs.
It has run now for at least 1,500 miles without any hiccups!
Well, that is except for the heater/air conditioning fan motor dying on my last trip.
What a job that is to do to the whole dash. I took it out to grease the windshield wiper shafts as one of those started screeching.
This was my second fan job to do out of my six cars. So I have been pretty darn lucky. 😊
I know your issue is definitely easier to fix.
So with this I will leave you with looking very strongly at your ignition system and the fuel quality.
These are definite possibilities of being “in the realm of unknown things” about your car.
Phil
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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hi machine man,
I don't have a timing light but will get one soon
see my new post about the current conditions (after I had trouble with timing belt alignment) if you want to see the new information related to the same basic symptoms
and thank you for you input!
--
2 1990 Volvo 240s - 1 is my son's sedan the other my 245 in restoration, 1 1999 S70 is my current daily driver until I can get back into the 245!
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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Thanks Phil
I'm trying to figure out how to check my fuel pressure after I clear the 2-1-4 code my reader showed when tested at position 6
I need to see how to get the adapters to put on a fuel pressure gauge.
Maybe it will all clear up after I replace the RPM sensor
I should have a spare ECU to try swapping in to although this ECU was working with the old engine when it was in there.
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2 1990 Volvo 240s - 1 is my son's sedan the other my 245 in restoration, 1 1999 S70 is my current daily driver until I can get back into the 245!
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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Hi again Jack,
You're running rich. You did gap your plugs?
Before speculating go look for OBD codes at A2 & A6.
Bill
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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Sorry for lack of response- for some reason I haven't been able to access the board for 4-5 days.
Plugs were pretty close to correctly gapped.
But I tweaked them to 7.4 mm to be sure (and I cleaned them)
The rpm sensor code was due to leaving the key in position 2 while unplugging the sensor. Once everything was off and battery was disconnected the code stayed clear.
No other codes but it's still stalling after 3-4 minutes of stumbling idle.
Tomorrow I try to check fuel pressure with my mechanic friends' gauge and adapter at the line into the fuel rail.
Maybe it's as simple as a clogged fuel filter? That was the only thing sitting on the car for a couple years of body work (albeit with a long hose connected to it into the engine compartment)
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2 1990 Volvo 240s - 1 is my son's sedan the other my 245 in restoration, 1 1999 S70 is my current daily driver until I can get back into the 245!
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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Ok I checked for codes and got a 2-1-4 code on the 6 position of the OBD LED reader.
Looks like I need to replace the RPM Sensor...I thought for sure that one was good
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2 1990 Volvo 240s - 1 is my son's sedan the other my 245 in restoration, 1 1999 S70 is my current daily driver until I can get back into the 245!
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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Hi Jack,
I've been unable to access Brickboard since your last post, now it's suddenly started to work again.
Badly fouled plugs might mean a leaking injector.
If you have old gas from the long layup get some Techron injector cleaner in the tank.
Don't be quick to replace your CPS. You may have a damaged harness connector.
Take the CPS connector apart clean with a toothbrush and 90% alcohol.
Blow out with air and examine the EFI pins.
Compare with each other looking for damaged , loose pins.
Use Penetrox-A on those pins to deter corrosion and improve conductivity.
Service also the AMM EFI connectors with Penetrox.
Two good pages to review by Ron Qwas and Dave Barton.
http://sw-em.com/anti_corrosive_paste.htm
https://www.240turbo.com/fusepanel240.html#ox-gard
BURNDY PENETROX A ELECTRICAL JOINT COMPOUND 8 FL oz
https://www.ebay.com/itm/385735185784 $16.04 Apr 2024
There should be a heavy ground wire to the bell housing.
Make sure that ground is clean and tight.
Lube with nickel or copper anti seize (conductive) grease or Penetrox
Corroded fuses need cleaning and apply penetrox Paste with a Q-Tip especially fuse 4 for the tank pump, and the 30 amp fuse at the battery.
Verify that the two signal grounds are solid at the intake manifold.
pull on the ring lugs to verify no loose crimped ring lugs. Best to solder them.
Phil's suggestion about spark is solid, do you get a robust white spark
at All of the plugs?
After it runs 3 minutes and quits see if the power amplifier is HOT.
This is a good job for a non contact IR thermometer. Too hot it will act up.
You can clean the connectors and renew the thermal paste to the heat sink.
Provide an email address in case Brickboard croaks again.
Good luck, Bill
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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Thanks Bill!
I did remove most of the gas from the tank thinking that might not be good to try to start the engine with.
Then I put in about 8 gal of fresh gas... As many times as I've let it idle and stall since then I hope any bad gas has been eliminated from the equation??
strackerjack@gmail.com is my email address
I will try the paste... I'm especially suspicious of the AMM connection as it seems to run better in limp home mode?? (but that's subjective).
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2 1990 Volvo 240s - 1 is my son's sedan the other my 245 in restoration, 1 1999 S70 is my current daily driver until I can get back into the 245!
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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Hi Bill,
I was having the same problem with not being to get on the Brickboard.
It was down since last Friday for me. It is rather frustrating not being able to monitor progress on threads of interest or those we reply to.
It has being doing this shut down thing rather too often IMO.
It’s getting covered up in advertising as that stuff is always the thing first coming all around the content of reading material.
It’s all coming out of any data plans that we are still paying for despite unlimited amounts. Nothing is a good deal for consumers.
I do not blame Jarrod for putting up a fight over the years!
As Kitty says “Google is evil.”
I gave up reading Popular Science for the lack of through journalism and ever increasing sized pictures to fill the pages despite it getting thinner.
I see they have shut down paper subscriptions and are doing something electronic newsletters.
Of course without a forward looking prognosis of how that’s working ?
Isn’t it interesting that the Brickboard is flirting in the similar arena.
I was never into the likes of PlayBoy despite those people saying they actually read them! 🤭
I used the past days this weekend and I wore myself out doing my overdue yard work. 😬
Brutal time consuming work but the place looks better!😊
In the recent post he is bringing up an RPM sensor that is the CPS that the ICU uses.
You are correct in that the wiring harness is in between all of the things ignition wise.
Running rich and then shutting down had me curious to “if” it will start right back up.
CPS’s do those symptoms.
I wanted to post back but so much for that.
I think it losing signals or they are bad signals being sent out and the OBD is recording them. He said 214?
So that is the good clue to chew on.
I hope the BB stays up and running better than his engine is now.
Phil
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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Will do - thanks
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2 1990 Volvo 240s - 1 is my son's sedan the other my 245 in restoration, 1 1999 S70 is my current daily driver until I can get back into the 245!
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