We went to pick up the car tonight thinking everything was fixed and back to normal. Then the guy tells me that the brake pedal is still not as high as it would normally be on the 240 series. They charged me $250 to install a new master cylinder and bleed the brakes twice which they charged two hours labor plus fluid. That was way more expensive than I had expected for a relatively simple job. Well the guy brought the car around and we left. The brakes work but the pedal is still almost touching the floor before the brakes kick in. I don't think the brakes would work in an emergency panic stop situation. The pedal was never that low before and doesn't feel very solid at all until it almost hits the floor.

The shop "thinks" the booster "might" be bad but they don't know for sure!!
This is a Volvo only repair shop and I would think they should know how to properly diagnose and fix the problem with the brakes instead of just throwing parts at it until they hit the right one. I can do it that way myself without the high labor costs they are charging me.

Needless to say, I'm very disapointed in the results, but I don't want to take it back there to be reamed for more parts and labor and still not get the brakes back to where they should be performing. I thought I made the right decision sending the car to the Volvo specialist shop, but I'm now questioning that decision had I known they were not going to fix the brakes correctly.

The car is barely driveable and you have to leave lots of extra room to stop. They should have never let that car out of the repair bay until the pedal is normal. So I'm now out another $250-$300 including the tow bill and I still don't have a good solid brake pedal!! The pedal is hard with the engine off but almost touches the floor with the engine running.

So I'm back to square one... does it sound like the booster could be bad?
My wife has to drive the car, but I don't want her driving it with poor braking capacity for more than a few days at most. I think I can handle installing a new booster since I don't have to open the hydraulic lines again.

At least I know that I wasn't going crazy since the "Volvo Experts" at the repair shop didn't fix it either. Where is the best place to buy a new booster if that's what the problem could be? I'm tempted to just buy all new brake lines, booster, and distribution block and be done with it. The brake failure light still does not light so that tells me there is still not enough pressure in the system to cause unequal pressure between the two circuits to trip the light.

Your thoughts (other than shoot the car) and opinions would be appreciated as always....

Thanks....!

P.S... My butt is starting to hurt from being reamed!!!

DeWayne

Could it be that the front pads are compressing and causing this?
You might try removing the pads and replacing them with any bit of flat metal thick enough to stop the pistons pumping right out and then see if the pedal is still soft.
It`s a bit of a long shot I know but we seem to be running out of ideas here.
At least trying this won`t cost you anything. I can`t remember if you replaced the front brake hoses as this would be my first bet.You will not see the small growth that a soft hose suffers under pressure and this will cause your problem.
Best of luck,
Colin.

hey i reread your original,not to say that this is too expensive,but anyone who charges $250.00 to change a m.s. & bleed,should damn well be ready to stand in front of your................

similar problem came to me last year,the shop the had just finished the" brake job" had put the rt. on the lft. and vise/v (frnt calipers).first i tried changing the bleeding sequence,to flush both circuts fully.still no pedal.
i decided air must be trapped in calipers due to the fact that the bleeders were in the wrong place,so i switched the calipers and began bleeding,i bled these brakes every imaginable way.still crappy pedal.the other guys had also installed a new m.c.so i decided maybe they messed w/the push rod,so i messed w/the push rod.hey i found my pedal, of course the rotors started getting quite toasty,so i reset push rod to spec.and decided to question the new m.c. that had been installed,rather than going to the time of buying new part and benchbleed, i pulled a known to be good off some car down the sreet? and threw it at this guy's problem .solid pedal.go easy on those other guys.slam them hard w/the safety lecture.and allow them some time to compensate your financial loss perhaps they are good at some other repair that you need.time would be much better spent sending them to school instead of court.hope the above is of interest.

Got the shits so I couldn't think straight....

I think your pedal is soft all the time. I'll bet with the engine off and a little extra effort it will go every bit as far as with the engine on. Yeah it feels easier with the vacuum assist as it should.

I'm back to my original thang from the first post below: those rebuilt calipers are having sloppy fun...I mean all three nipples on each one purge fluid hard and pure, right? You have rapped them repeatedly with a hard rod to free EVERY air bubble right?

Then the first seal may only be holding some level of pressure (say when you are bleeding) but gives way under full hydraulic pressure - and the second seal does hold - hence no leaks.
--
http://www.fidalgo.net/~brook4/oilslubesfilters.html

I have been following this saga since the beginning and must admit I couldn't offer a suggestion until I read your latest post where you mentioned the pedal becoming hard near the floor.

I once bought a Valiant which displayed the same symtoms, pedal almost to the floor before any braking occurred. The previous owner had the front calipers and rear wheel cylinders "overhauled" by a "professional" brake shop before he sold it.

After a week of investigation including a MC rebuild and continuous bleeding, I discovered the caliper pistons were sticking in the seals, in other words the pistons were not sliding through the seals to take up excessive clearance between the pistons and the pads. The result was the MC had to move a lot of fluid before the pistons finally contacted the pads. When the pedal was released the distorted seals pulled the pistons too far back again. The fix was to disassemble the calipers and lubricate the pistons and seals with brake grease. Problem solved !

I would take a close look at those front calipers, I have rebuilt a lot of 144 and 244 calipers and have NEVER had a problem bleeding the brakes.

Good luck

DeWayne,

read Hillbilly's post below. it contains the following:

"For some reason the calipers are displacing more fluid than the master cylinder is storing in it's cylinder."

I think he is onto something. Makes a LOT of sense, especially since you just replaced them. The reservoir on my 91 is plenty large. It should be easy enough to see how low the reservoir gets when you step on the brakes. Worth looking at?

Could it be possible that the piston is not returning all the way preventing the ports from the reservoirs from getting uncovered by the piston to allow fluid into the dual cylinders. I alluded to this on a much earlier post and suggested looking for the turbulance in the fluid reservoir.
Chris Herbst has suggested adjusting the push rod length longer but maybe check to see if needs to be shorter. I did not even know these were adjustable on Volvos. Could it be possible that the brake pedal is not returning fully for some reason and therby limiting full return of the master cyl piston.

I do not believe that a fault in the booster would cause a problem other than loss of assist power.

I feel for you and appreciate the extreme frustration you are experiencing. Try to keep a clear head under difficult circumstances.

I didn't have time to work on it tonight due to other commitments but I'm going to try several of the suggestions that were given here tomorrow, starting with clamping off the front brake lines to see if the pedal returns. If so, then I'll go to Carquest and speak to them about possible problems with the calipers.

The booster worked fine before I did the brakes and I didn't have pedal with my old master cylinder either, but I did have pedal when the MC was plugged and the brake lines were removed. I wish I had kept my old calipers, but I didn't expect to have the problems I'm having and the old calipers were no good anyway.

I'll post back tomorrow after I do some more detective work.


DeWayne

If they are unwilling, tell them you're going to the volvo dealer and they are paying all cost when you take them to court.
After watching this endless problem, I gotta say, if there is pressure when you clamp the fr caliper hoses, and not when you don't, and you are sure there is no air in there, (bled 'til clear fluid no bubbles) most likly the calipers were overbored and oversized pistons were installed. this would force the m.c. piston into a longer stroke ( the brakes should still work almost as strong as before though).
I suppose the m.c could have a tapered bore and that would cause problems as the pedal went further along it's stroke losing pressure. I've never heard of this but I could well imagine. Why not spring for some quality parts, with the $ you get back from the garage?
I buy aftermarket parts all the time, and once in awhile they bite me pretty hard in the ass. I figure I'm still saving $ in the long run, and I like fixing my mistakes (keeps me humble I guess). Patience is more than a virtue, it is salvation from pain. Keep on keeping on,
--
patrick of montreal, '66/120, '83/245.

This is what I would do. Since you hired a shop to make repairs and they gave you back a Faulty, dangerous automobile. I would take the car to a Volvo Dealer,
pay them $90.00 to give you an estimate for repairs have Volvo do the repairs. Send that (Bill) to the Independent shop.and ask for your money returned and the cost to Volvo. Then you will have to take them to court.
1. The independent did not fix you car.
2. Gave it back in a un-driveable condition. = NO BRAKES could prove to be FATAL.. A big mistake as far as I am concerned.

That shop made a BIG Mistake! YOU never give a car back without brakes!

--
john ..1985 245:GLTi..228k mi.. so. california
--
john ..1985 245:GLTi..228k mi.. so. california

This is what I would do. Since you hired a shop to make repairs and they gave you back a Faulty, dangerous automobile. I would take the car to a Volvo Dealer,
pay them $90.00 to give you an estimate for repairs have Volvo do the repairs. Send that (Bill) to the Independent shop.and ask for your money returned and the cost to Volvo. Then you will have to take them to court.
1. The independent did not fix you car.
2. Gave it back in a un-driveable condition. = NO BRAKES could prove to be FATAL.. A big mistake as far as I am concerned.

That shop made a BIG Mistake! YOU never give a car back without brakes!
--
john ..1985 245:GLTi..228k mi.. so. california

How to test the brake booster:
You can test a booster by pumping the brake pedal with the engine off until the pedal gets high and hard. Then, with your foot resting lightly on the brake pedal, start the engine. If the booster is working properly, engine vacuum will cause the booster diaphragm to pull the brake pedal down about a half an inch.

--
Time flies like an arrow.... Fruit flies like a banana!

RE: The pedal is hard with the engine off.....

If the above is a correct statement, and with the engine off you actually have a rock hard pedal that goes hard when pushed about an inch or two down, then your brake system is holding pressure and you can do no more with the hydraulic end of things, that was taken care of by you, and maybe even in the garage you took it to, although I doubt they did anything except charge you. I'm still surprised and troubled that the mechanic let you drive the car and didn't tell you what the rest of the problem was. In most states it is a law that a mechanic can't release a car with questionable brakes to the customer, even if the customer demands the vehicle. That part of this drama troubles me, because it sounds like the car is not really safe to drive. The brake booster is probably the culprit so that when you are running the engine you are not getting any power assist, so it is very difficult to stop the car, you have to press the pedal very hard and it feels like you are pushing the pedal to the floor. I would suggest you look closely at the brake booster, especially the vaccuum source that operates it. Make sure there is vaccumm at the booster and that the large diameter vaccumm hose that supplies the booster is not plugged or capped off. I really don't know if your engine has a seperate vaccuum pump which may be bad and not creating enough vaccuum, or if your booster is getting vaccuum directly from the intake manifold. I don't know what else to tell you to look at, please let us know what the final fix is.

--
Time flies like an arrow.... Fruit flies like a banana!

"The pedal is hard with the engine off but almost touches the floor with the engine running."

Hmmmmmmmmmm............I totally missed this in your post. Why would you think your booster is any good? Try the Foster method running and not, too.
--
http://www.fidalgo.net/~brook4/oilslubesfilters.html

1. if you charged the repairs on a visa or mastercard or whatever, call the company and contest the charges. Explain what you wanted done and the shit job they did. They will call the company and likely you will get a full credit. How could you let them get away with that?

2. agree with posts below, gravity bleed them yourself, those 'mechanics' are idiots.

3. listen to chris herbst; the adjustable actuator rod could be the culprit

4. if that doesn't get it, then take the calipers back. from your previous post, i would start with the front left. But for the life of me, i can't see how a bad caliper can cause a soft or spongy brake without showing signs of brake fluid leaking from it somewhere?

my best wishes to you fellow brickster. with enough brainstorming, you're gonna eventually figure this out.

If you aren't the original owner of the car, perhaps there was already a rebuilt/remanufactured, or aftermarket "new" master cylinder installed in the car.

What if that master cylinder was significantly different enough to cause the person/shop who installed it originally to make adjustments? And now once the correct parts are installed, it's way out of line.

It might be an obvious solution. In light of all of the work you've done, and all of the time you've spent, that might be all that there is left. I'd be interested to know if you were able to compensate for the brake booster. if the brakes are getting hard at the bottom of the pedal travel, an adjustment should bring the pedal up. If the brakes go spongy AFTER that, then suspect air or a MC problem. But I somehow doubt they will. I've fixed many systems like that, just not after such significant amounts of work were poured into them. That tends to make one suspicious of the parts that just were installed, when in fact those might be the right parts after all.
--
chris herbst, five volvos.

I am the original owner of the car. I had replaced the original MC about six years ago because it was bypassing internally. All I did then was bolt in the reman unit and the brakes worked fine with no adjustments. Since this is the third master cylinder that has been installed and it's not a rebuilt unit, I doubt the problem is the MC. The brake lines have been bled to death by me and the repair shop, so there should be no air left in the system unless one of the components is letting air back in, but then I would expect to see a leak.

I don't think the Haynes or Bently manuals give specific specifications on adjustment of the brake booster, but I'll look again to be sure. I did see the adjustment nut on the booster the last time I took off the MC, so I'll try to adjust it tonight and see what happens. I'm also going to call the local junk yards to look for a used booster just in case.

Before I adjust the booster, I'm going the clamp off the front brake lines to see if the hard pedal returns. If it does, then the problem could be caused by the reman calipers. If I still don't have a hard pedal, then the calipers are most likely not the culprit.

Thanks again for all the input and advise.... I may be poor when the brakes finally get fixed, but they will get fixed one way or another!!

DeWayne

"The pedal is hard with the engine off".

That's a good sign. A system with air in it, or a pressure leak such as a bulging or blown line, bad caliper seals (you'd see the leak sooner or later), or a bad master, won
't display that symptom. An air-loaded brake system, even only one circuit, will have a soggy pedal, point blank. If one caliper has air, the car will pull a little bit, sometimes heavily.

I am thinking, adjust the length of the master cylinder actuator rod OUT several turns. There was a thread on this in the 700 forum, I believe.

For some reason, I've noticed that aftermarket master cylinders (no brand, rhyme, or reason) have caused similar problems on 700 series cars that I've seen. I have no explanation other than that the tolerances/build specs for the "Rebuilt" masters are different enough to cause problems when installed. The booster/actuator rod is adjustable for exactly that purpose--to enable you to get more travel. By adjusting the rod so it's longer, you will get a higher pedal. That adjustment exists for a reason and it might be well worth the try. Adjustment is a few minutes of your time, and no hydraulic work whatsoever.

If the thing just sags out constantly, there might be a massive air leak in the booster. But something tells me that isn't the issue; you'd likely have a noticeable idle drop when you hit the brakes hard. Even perhaps a stall.
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chris herbst, five volvos.

From what you've posted, I conclude that the guys who worked on your brakes are bozos, crooks or both. I wonder if they even bled the brakes properly - that could cause your soft pedal. I would get a good Volvo manual (Bentley) and bleed the brakes with the help of a friend. The Bentley will serve you well in many ways, even if you choose not to do most of your own work; knowledge is power, esp. the power to spot bozos and crooks!
--
'84 '285' rice-eater with lotsa hp & performance goodies

I already have both the Haynes and Bently manuals. The brake system has already been pressure bled, gravity bled, and vacuum bled and still no hard pedal.
Between myself and the shop, we have installed three master cylinders and still no hard pedal. Something else has to be wrong somewhere in the system.

I don't think the guys at the repair shop are crooks. I've used them before for other repairs (motor mounts, etc...) and had no problems. The second rebuilt MC that they replaced with a brand new one could very well be defective. My objection is that they sent the car back out without really fixing it the way it should be fixed. I did not know how low the pedal was until we left the shop and I did not expect it to be almost on the floor like it is. I could take it back to them, but they will only charge me more money to do things that I can probably handle myself without the high labor costs.

DeWayne

I've read the others' posts and assume you've checked out the adjustment rod, etc. I agree that it doesn't sound like the booster is at fault. When you get a hard pedal with the engine off, do you actually get stopping power?

So, this may be too easy, but there are many places that can leak brake fluid: the distribution block, the proportioning valve in front and the line juncture in the rear where one line splits into two and any other line fitting. Any fluid seepage at any of those places? Any seepage at any caliper? If it isn't air in the system or a bad master, then the system might be losing fluid. Is you fluid level dropping?

Good luck! I agree that it was hideous for the shop to release the car with the brakes working so poorly, not without at least a written warning not to drive the car on public roads.
--
'84 '285' rice-eater with lotsa hp & performance goodies

> the line juncture in the rear where one line splits into two

What? I think something funky fell into that pipe you were smoking man...
Maybe on a 240 with ABS, I'll give you that

Greg

You're right, I was going from memory, never a good idea with me! Anyway, I meant the 2 little cylinders in the rear where the solid lines join to the flexible ones. One of those stuck internally on me, so I just took it off and gave it a good rap. Must be a spring-loaded safety valve in there; I could feel it go "dooing" when it freed up.
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'84 '285' rice-eater with lotsa hp & performance goodies

Not to rub your nose in it, but why did you not get all NEW OEM parts dirty cheap from www.fcpgroton.com to start with, like Ate rear calipers for $50 each, Ate hoses $6 each, Ate Blue brake fluid, etc.? See post from Paul Seminara.

The brake booster can not cause loss of brake pedal. The steel linkage is continuous from the brake pedal, thru the booster and to the master cylinder. The booster acts as a "helping hand" to increase linkage "push" pressure into the master cylinder and thereby increase hydraulic system pressure to the brake calipers. If the pedal is high and hard with the engine off and drops with the engine running, then it sounds like the booster is OK.
For some reason the calipers are displacing more fluid than the master cylinder is storing in it's cylinder. When you crank the engine and the pedal travels almost to the floor, can you pump the pedal once and gain any additional pedal?

I know that I asked this before, but are you SURE that you have the correct calipers on the front? From all that I've read and scratched my head about over this saga, I sounds to me that the problem lies there.

Not to rub your nose in it, but why did you not get all NEW OEM parts dirty cheap from www.fcpgroton.com to start with, like Ate rear calipers for $50 each, Ate hoses $6 each, Ate Blue brake fluid, etc.?

Well... because the brake pads were worn down to nothing and the local guy had PBR brake pads in stock, so I bought the pads and new hardware kits from him.
As for the calipers, the dust boots were shot and I did not know they were bad until after I started the job, so I could not wait for mailorder parts to arrive. The OEM brake pads leave lots of nasty brake dust on the wheels and the local dealer doesn't stock very many parts so they have to special order them.

DeWayne

Happens to all of us. Recently I rebuilt Bendix front calipers and put in new 10.5 inch rotors when I could have bought new Girling calipers and put in new jumbo rotors for a little bit more money and a lot less work. So it is not that I am feeling superior, more like wondering what gets us all into trouble. Chris Herbst has some interesting suggestions. Sorry I cannot offer any more help that guys like him, but I am not in their league. All the best.

Don't waste money putting all those new parts on. Go to your nearest junk yard. In particular for the brake booster. They never go. I agree with Don that your rebuilt front calipers might be defective. You don't really know what you are getting. I don't see how a bad brake booster would make your pedal soft. What was wrong with the original calipers. Were they leaking, or seized? If you still have them put them back on and see if that solves the problem. You should also be able to easily find another distribution block at the junk yard, and even good calipers. I just got a left front caliper at the junk yard for my 84. It had barely started to rust.
From what you have said the problem started when you replaced the front calipers, so they would be the first thing I would suspect

Now, I'm still new to fixin' Bricks, but the first thought that comes to mind is that those front calipers are dual circuit (where US-made are single circuit). It's a great safety feature...but wouldn't the symptoms for the failure of one circuit be similar to those Dewayne is experiencing?
--
If at first you don't suceed....it's time to sell it! ;)

hey-zues!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Man alive - you have about longest brake tale I've ever red in 5 years on the BB!!

I gotta be seriously suspect those "rebuilt" front calipers....or dieing rear calipers or swelling hoses.........

1) Are the rebuilt front cals, the same brand as your crapola M.C.?
2) How many miles on the car?
3) Are you 100% sure the rubber lines are perfect?
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http://www.fidalgo.net/~brook4/oilslubesfilters.html

Paul,

Answers to your questions...

1) Yes... the calipers came from Carquest which is about the only place around here to get them other than the dealer. Other parts places and many repair shops get their parts from Carquest which has a major distributhion center here that ships parts all over the country.

2) The car has just over 101k on the clock.

3)Perfect...? No they are not perfect being that they are the original brake lines, but they seem to be in good condition.

I wish my brake tale would come to an end soon. The credit card company is going to love me this month, that's for sure. I'm frustrated and my wife is upset about the whole thing and to top off my day, I found a screw stuck in my truck tire tonight so I put on the spare until I can get the tire patched.

Murphy is kicking my butt really good and I wish he would find someone else to play with. I can say one thing about the brakes... they don't squeak now!


DeWayne

Foster the lines. Again. Lose the Carquest calipers...
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http://www.fidalgo.net/~brook4/oilslubesfilters.html

Hey - I replaced my front calipers on my '84 240, from a great place called "Bendix," My old ones were seized. Anyway, They gave me two for 146.00 (just parts), and one worked great, but the other one was shot, and would not bleed. This gave me a very soft pedal. Thus this may be your problem. I went back and they gave me another replacement for nothing! Also, your brake shop could be doing a crummy job, i.e. not bleeding correctly, and getting air in the lines. This could give you a soft pedal too. I suggest getting new calipers and lines (lines are cheap), and doing the job yourself or by a good friend. It is not very hard (3-4 hours). Also check your M.C. and make sure it is in good condition. I highly reccomend BENDIX! Hope it helps.