posted by
someone claiming to be volvo-nutster
on
Wed Sep 22 15:17 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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So.. in continuation of trying to get a very reluctant drum-brake off...
If all else fails, do you have to cut it off? What's to be done!? This drum has refused every effort and seems stuck for good. Has anybody out there had to cut one off before? Am I giving up too easy here?
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Hello, I know it's a little let but I spent a little over $80 on this Universal Hub Puller. I found it to be money well spent. I may not get much use out of it but it sure did serve it's purpose. It took a good 5 minutes on beating on it with a small sledge hammer until it finally broke loose. The other side was much easier. I can't remember where it was purchased but here is one link:
http://www.thetoolwarehouse.net/shop/OTC-7394.html
take care,
curtis m. white
http://thirdchoice.com
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posted by
someone claiming to be volvo-nutster
on
Thu Sep 23 12:42 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Hey All,
Just to let you know. I have a fine local mobile mechanic come and he made quick work of taking it off. He of course had exactly the right tool.
Now it's time to fix the internals. Once drum-break pads get fluid on them, they're kind of toast right?
Thanks as alwasy y'all for the tips and such.
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A Helpfull Trick On Re-Assembly.
Clean the taper as best you can and apply white grease to it before you go back together. It's an old trick we used on the old Chrysler drums (same type) helps a little by cutting down the rust in between the tapers so it won't be as frozen next time (hopefully)
Dennis
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I'm not all that familiar with 'white' grease, but the white stuff I've seen is a lubricant. Seems to me you don't want to lubricate surfaces that aren't allowed to move unless its absolutely NOT possible for them to move.
In the case of that tapered brake drum fitting...you don't want it to budge. And it can. I've had several 122s that had a mysterious clunk when first going into reverse, then back to forward... and it turned out to be the drum slipping, which wiped caused the woodruff key to be hour glass shaped, and flared the key slot in the axle... effectively ruining the axle shaft.
I'd vote absolutely NO on any lubricant on that tapered fit. Clean it as impeccably, put it on as tight as you can, and have the right puller on hand when you need to pull it again. If you wanna keep water out, I suppose you could install the drum completely and tightly, then back the bolt off, smear some grease on the threads, then re-tighten the bolt. But I don't think its necessary. It ain't hard to get the drum off if you have the right tools.
But maybe the "white grease" you mention has properties of which I'm unaware.
-Matt
--
-Matt '70 145s, '65 1800s, '66 122s wagon, others inc. '53 XK120 FHC
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Use anti-sieze. It has minimal lubricity but rather the particles keep corrosion to a minimum. And torque the dang nut to spec then ADVANCE the castle nut to the next hole. The only reason for a drum to slip on the axle is not enough clamping force. Another thing to remember is to have both the parts at about the same temp. If the axle has been sitting with the sun shining on it for an hour or two and you put a (relatively) cold drum on it, the wedge-mating will be incomplete. A drum that has been sitting in the sun with the axle in the shade has the opposite problem... it will go on farther and be a beast to get off later. Let them sit mostly assembled (pushed on by hand) with a towel or rag over the drum for a bit so thay are the same temp when you snug up the nut.
I also went the extra mile and lightly lapped the two together so there would be as good a mating surface as possible.
Mike!
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Mike;
...I didn't want to be the first to post it, so I waited, but now I wholehaertedly agree with your anti-seize suggestion*...in this case I don't agree with Matt...if he damaged the square key, that means the drum was NOT tight on the taper with the "Wedgimite patented fit", and the drum was able to move with respect to the axel...BAAAD!....properly tightened, it will NOT move, and as posted elsewhere, doesn't even need a square key!
VN;
Use a slight film of A-S on the axel taper...install the drum, and tighten the nut as Mike suggests...then remove it again using puller...I bet it will be refreshingly easy(!), and carefully inspect the contact area on the tapered axel and convince yourself!
* see also: http://www.intelab.com/swem/anti_seize.htm
Cheers
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Yep, I use anti-sleaze there too. Makes life a lot easier, and I really can't imagine how it could hurt anything if the nut's tightened sensibly.
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Yep, if the shoes get soaked with fluid, they're goners. New ones are not terribly expensive, though, in exchange for your old ones as cores.
I've gotten very good prices from RPR on brake parts.
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posted by
someone claiming to be volvo-nutster
on
Thu Sep 23 14:19 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Thanks Phil,
Any tips on sources for new wheel cylinders also? I've priced both IPD and Jim Fisher already... seem to be about $50/each at either place. JM would have to order them though.
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posted by
someone claiming to be volvo-nutster
on
Fri Sep 24 06:35 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Phil,
I'm unfamiliar with RPR. Are they a local (PDX) outfit? Do you have an address or web-link to them?
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They're in the SF Bar area, but do primarily mail order.
www.rprusa.com
1-800-81-VOLVO
--Phil
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posted by
someone claiming to be volvo-nutster
on
Fri Sep 24 07:17 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Thanks Phil,
I may have to go local, for immediate availability today. I'll now be able to plan ahead with RPR however for future projects.
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As others have mentioned when it does finally let go there is a lot of energy involved.
When using the puller, do not completely remove the hub nut, undo it until it is flush with the end of the shaft.
This prevents the whole thing flying off and helps prevent damage to the shaft threads.
Colin.
1990 740SE B200E/M47, remote C/Locking.
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In the previous thread I mentioned I purchased a "professional grade" hub puller from JC Whitney. Best $54 I ever spent. It does not look just like the others noted here but similar enough to not make a difference.
It works splendidly. I also couldn't find a decent puller locally so had to order it.
Should you wish to "give-up" DON'T cut the drum. Both unnecesary and expensive. Before you cut the hub (and split it with a chisel) look into replacement cost/availability. Sobering, isn't it?
So, git out there and source up the proper puller and HAMMER on it.
Mike!
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posted by
someone claiming to be volvo-nutster
on
Thu Sep 23 07:07 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Mike,
Can you supply me with the part number for the JC unit? The best I could find was this:
http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/ProductDisplay/s-10101/p-3226/c-10101
but it doesn't seem to have a peice to hammber on.
Can you direct me to a link on the JC site where I can order it?
Thanks!
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Ah but upon further inspection the professional puller is for just the spider
you then need to purchase the arms - unsure if the price listed is for a set of three or each
You will probably find that the 4.5 pound slide hammer is insufficient for wailing , it is probably similar to the slide the slide shown here
http://www.jcwhitney.com/wcsstore/jcwhitney/images/imagecache/I1361.gif;pv18e5e85217aaf127
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It is there on the page no picture
Slide Hammer Attachment. 4-1/2" lb. hammer attaches to any of the pullers above to permit pulling axles, etc. 17-1/2" sliding area.
Slide Hammer Attachment Each ZX813997W $44.99
this is in addition to the Professional Hub Puller, 3-arm Puller for 5-, 6-, 7- or 8-hole Bolt Circles from 3" to 7" Diam. ZX128895A $53.99
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The "lesser one" for $28-ish is reported to be OK. The one I got was part # ZX 128895A and it DID come with the arms. The "extra" arms noted are to convert it to an outside puller (that you do not want). The slide hammer attachment may be nice for some jobs but it will not work for getting these drums off!
Mike!
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thanks for the clarification. Sometimes catalogues do not have all the info required - there is always the phone.
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This is the type normally seen at rental shops... they work fine.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2490658312&category=43996
--
-Matt '70 145s, '65 1800s, '66 122s wagon, others inc. '53 XK120 FHC
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Hey Nutster:
And all you others out there don't outbid me (lostdiver61)
I will start bidding in 3 days if this doesn't get out of hand. If I win the bid then I will be more than happy to loan it to nuster for the cost of shipping. can you wait??
Another thought , if you have access to a welder is to scrape one up yourself.
http://www.triumphspitfire.com/puller.html
If you are a real animal you might be able to make one of these and use an air wrench on it.
http://www.chrysler300club.com/rcmstuff/fairbanks/puller.html
je
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If you look closely, you'll find another similar unit under the one I posted the url to... Just do a search for 'hub puller', or 'drum puller' any time, and them things'll show up. Get lucky and find one someday with a low buy-it-now price...
I'm still kicking myself for not buying the one at a local flea market for $17 a few years back... Since then, I've surely spent $50 on rentals.
--
-Matt '70 145s, '65 1800s, '66 122s wagon, others inc. '53 XK120 FHC
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posted by
someone claiming to be volvo-nutster
on
Thu Sep 23 12:39 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Thanks Matt,
I'll definately be on the lookout at swap-meets and such now myself, now that I know what to look for.
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posted by
someone claiming to be volvo-nutster
on
Thu Sep 23 06:18 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Matt,
That doe indeed look like what I need. Both the big national car-parts companies I checked at did not have one like this however. Any idea in Oregon what kind of store would have one?
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Don't bother with the parts store rentals... Go to a tool rental joint that rents manly tools (sorry... no offence ladies). somewhere that rents engine hoists and trench diggers and backhoes and stuff...
-Matt
--
-Matt '70 145s, '65 1800s, '66 122s wagon, others inc. '53 XK120 FHC
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Can I add my support to get the correct wheel puller (should be able to rent one) and follow all of the expert advice on removing these stubborn little beasts? To give you more encouragement, here's a link to my ordeal on my Amazon:
http://cvolvo.com/Central/AMAZON/second.html
Notice liberal amount of penetrating oil on axle shaft. Didn't need to use the hot water trick though. ;-) As we say here in Canada; bonne chance mon ami
--
Cam a.k.a. CVOLVO.COM
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posted by
someone claiming to be volvo-nutster
on
Thu Sep 23 06:16 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Yah, that is a lovely lookin' tool. I have not been able to find a beefy one to rent. I checked at both Schucks and Napa, and what they had was wimpy and would not fit the bill. I don't know where I could check to rent one that fits the bill where I can pound on the turning levers like yours. The ones that I HAVE found have a sharpened screw end which goes against the axel, rather than a spread out one that would cover both the axle and turned-over castle-nut.
I guess I will not give up on it right now, and not cut it off.
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sweet puller. Abput 5 years ago my mech of 15 years passed due to a heart attack. I have yet to find a mech worth the salt. A firend that owns a garage has been itching for quite a few years to work on my 122. I was doubtful but he assured me he knows what he is doing ASE certs and all. Well my local mech tried to pull mine off with the wrong puller. Ends up he broke his puller - serves him right for using the wrong tool.
You have to love a removal tool that is larger (and probably heavier) than the object it is removing.
JE drooling over iron!
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Did you get a heavy puller fastened to the lug bolts?
Did you pull any of the lug bolts in two?
I'd say if the answer to the second one is "no", put the puller back on
GOOD and TIGHT, tighten up the center screw until you are just short of
pulling the lug bolts in two, and then smack the center screw on the outboard
end with at least a 3# hammer, and I don't mean a light blow. We're playing
for keeps here and we don't take prisoners. After a few smacks, tighten it up
again and look for a bigger hammer. It will come off but you have to make it
want to.
ps: be sure the brake is released and adjusted in as far as possible
(unscrew the adjusting screw toward the center of the car. PBlaster
may help in this.)
--
George Downs, Bartlesville, Oklahoma, Central US
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George:
Wasn't it you who wrote about the trick using hot water to pop off the brake drums? Put tension on the puller, pour a pan of boiling water over the hub, then smack the puller with a hammer. The hot water causes rapid expansion of the drum and the smack comes before the heat gets to the axle.
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Was indeed. Good memory. Would probably work on this one too.
--
George Downs, Bartlesville, Oklahoma, Central US
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really there is no need to cut it off, if you can't get it off it's because you either don't the appropriate puller, or don,t know how to use it. That being said I have cut various pieces off things in my life and this should not be such a big deal. I would start with a grinder and cut a circle halfway bettween the outer circumfrence and the threaded bolt. This would free up the outer part of the drum. Once you had removed that you could go for the tapered section where the drum's center is stuck to the axle shaft. The connection is conical so care must be taken not to damage the 1/2 shaft. You won't need to cut all the way to the 1/2 shaft mating surface with an mil or 2 should do it, then use a chisel to break it free. Good luck with that, but really you should go to a truck mechanic and borrow a decent puller, it will be easier adn in the long run cheaper.
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no... Don't cut it off. it'll come off. I've had some stubborn ones, and they always come off.
Were you to cut it, you are likely to need an entire new rear end or at least axle shaft, so you might as well do the job right. Save the parts.
You sure you got the right tools for the job?
-Matt
--
-Matt '70 145s, '65 1800s, '66 122s wagon, others inc. '53 XK120 FHC
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posted by
someone claiming to be Al A.
on
Wed Sep 22 15:48 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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If you've got the brake adjusters backed off all the way, have sprayed some penetrant into the joint between the axle and drum, are using the correct puller with three or more legs going under the wheel studs and a hex on the screw part that has a steel head with two striking faces, with the drum nut turned around on the end of the axle so it isn't ruined by the puller, a big hammer and a will to do it, you can take that drum off.
Give it plenty of THAT, and don't get your face too close to the operation, because when the drum finally lets go, it may do so with a vengeance. Don't get a case of Volvonose like I did.
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VN;
I agree with Matt...given the correct puller, used correctly, and sometimes left on a few days with a few smacks every night, they always come off...and the adjuster (which is likely frozen solid too) or your face is not going to stop it when it pops off! You hate to use that much force on an oldie, but that's what often what it takes....heat will help...
Good Luck
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posted by
someone claiming to be volvo-nutster
on
Thu Sep 23 12:49 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Yah, thanks for the tips.
Looking at the drum inside, now that I have it off (see very top message), there is not much of a lip at all that would seem to have made it catch on the edges of the shoes. I guess it was just twenty or thirty years of being mounted on the axle that was keeping it locked on so tight!?
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Yes and no.
The theory of the hub on the tapered axle is thus... The hub expands slightly as it is drawn up over the axle by the nut. This creates an interference fit that is adequate to transmit rather a lot of torque from the axle to the wheel (thence tire and ground). Older designs didn't even have the square key and relied solely on the interference fit... called "wedgemating" by some machinists.
I can tell you that the darn thing is nearly impossible to pull off without the proper puller with even the slightest torque on that nut! (having messed up on reassembly due to impatience/fatigue and had to pull out the puller several times!)
Take note of the above suggestions and (unless you want to call your savior again) make darn certain everything is in order before putting ANY torque on that nut!!!!!
While you are in there it is a good idea to pull the axles and clean/inspect/repack the bearings. They are big so don't need to be perfect but they do need to be smooth and well greased!
The gaskets are easy to make from material and the "seals" generally do not need to be replaced. Make certain the "weep" hole beneath the axle flange is clear so any puking of diff. oil will show up there instead of washing down your nice new brakes!!! If you really must have a modern style oil seal in the hub, I have found one that apears to fit well. Look down the posts to find the number.
Go to NAPA for your wheel cylinders. IF you have the Wagner units at the rear then ask for the "all drum" cylinders as that is what they have them listed as. The part # is in a previous post too.
Mike!
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