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hello friends,
me again with the PIA beast again that wont run; kinda my fault this time:
so battery was draining down and alternator quite charging, so i removed sent away to rebuild, i was careful to mark wires on back so as not not mix up, i got it back and put it on but in so doing i did following:
1. i got the 2 hoses mixed up going to intake manifold causing kickback n hard start
2. playing around with hoses on intake i broke the connections to the temp sender near the thermostat
3. i forgot to take pics of hoses so i was in guessing game as to what was where, when the car did start briefly it ran at 3k rpms
4. my car is not per book as i have discovered this weekend that the aux air valve doesnt work so it was blanked off.
4. i bought new clamps n hoses, panetman told me crank case hose goes before butterfly
5. i blanked of aux air valve and the opening behind butterfly on intake manifold
so now i crank away like crazy not even an effort to fire:
a. check for sparks
b. check for fuel turned up pressure abit - now i have leaking fuel press reg - slow leak from top
note i have 22 lbs to the rails, i was running beautifully with 18 before, i have these VP inj from VP that wont work at 32, i also lost throttle stop it fell out on brief test drive last time she ran - replaced but position is a guesstimate
so any ideas where to start? also how do you guys keep these things running, i cant find any new spares - ugh!
thanks in advance
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Hi Rob, I reread or scanned your previous thread(s). I think the best approach would be to go through the “troubleshooting manual” step by step. You’ve certainly got a lot of things going on. As 142G reiterated you need to set the FP at 28-30 psi. Otherwise you’ll be chasing gremlins. If your FPR is leaking, you’ll need to get one that works. Yes they are $$, but you can’t make progress without one that works properly. I just saw a NOS one go on EBay for ~$200. Failing getting the correct one, you can get an aftermarket one that would likely work, but that’s another project.
Step by step is what works. Reading other stuff from various forums and latching on to something some one else suggests, that says “this and that” will only compound the diagnosis. You can’t ignore one problem, and then go to something else, hoping for success.
DJet is not perfect, but switching to carbs has its own family of problems. There’s lots of stories out there. And probably more work and $ than getting DJet to operate properly.
We’re here to help, but you need to stick to the methodical step by step diagnosis.
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thanks c1800!
i got a fast idle now as mentioned in prev post; yes i need to diagnose these injectors i cant understand how or why they need to have a setting so low its almost carb like. It appears the leaking FPR cannot keep a constant 18lbs pressure, upon me turning up pressure too much fuel is dumping into cylinders causing no start situation, how do i know this?
1. too much oil in the crank case
2. wet fouled plugs - these were, i pulled per planetmans suggestion and replaced with my old plugs and she fired up (with pinched gas line)
not having stock causes these unreliability issues that i just cant stand, i m like wizard, if its not stock set up i dont like it, as you can read the book n info all you want but it wont help.
I want to test one of these injs to find out what the actual pressure rating is, if its 18-20 i might try an aftermarket (sigh!!) setup to manage, however, there's no chance this will work at book rate 28 as i tried that for 6 months before coming on here,
thanks all for your invaluable experience!
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Hi, I think youre chasing a red herring on the injectors. Check with VP to make sure you got the correct ones. If you did, you need to check out other things. The injectors rely on a signal to open and inject fuel. That could come from numerous sources. As I said before, your FPR isnt helping you if you cant get a constant 30 PSI. Worst case scenario is your ECU is the culprit. But you wont be able to figure this out if your FPR is malfunctioning. Have you checked those things out in my previous post?
Step by step.
----- Original Message -----
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Hi Rob and Co.
I hesitate to jump into this thread maybe it should be on its own but...
I've been learning a lot from reading and have several issues that I"m working though. including Missing at cruise and low mpg ( 16-18mpg). Learning how to set the TS has been fun and I thank many people here who have put out such good info.
I'm waiting for another TS unit to see if a swap out will fix the MACS issue.
In the meanwhile, I figured I'd better confirm all those other sensor are okay.
Did a vacuum check with a hand held pump gauge affair this morning and the MAP sensor failed spectacularly. I surprised the engine runs at all! When it does, it runs with a high idle. I suspect, because excess air is being drawn into the manifold via the MAP sensor.. Is that even possible?
Thanks for any thoughts. David G, Seattle
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David Geoffrion
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hi David,
its possible - i take you checked for obvious leaks in vacuum hoses?
update on my project - injectors still at testing site its been a week now but they are the only ones in town, i let you know as soon as i know
thanks R
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Hi, Yes all vacuum hoses have been replaced. The check I'm doing involves a hand vacuum pump hooked up directly onto the map sensor. Doesn't hold even 5 psi for a second. So as soon as I receive that unit being offered, I'll test it for electrical and vacuum. and then see what happens and report. Just about every other test has been done! :)
--
David Geoffrion
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hello to All,
so after month of waiting to get injectors rebuilt, these are the 50 year old ones as the new ones from VP accord theshop are complete garbage, wont spray and resistance is inconsistent.
So car is back together anf FPR is leaking like crazy, real fire waiting to happen, luckily thanks to Planetman, i have new to put on tomorrow - we had plumbing emergency today -ugh!
more to follow - thanks all for help so far!
R
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greetings All,
so when i put everything back together, i had rough fast idle - the installation of the original injectors required me to tinder with the FPR and as soon as i turned it to 32 lbs it started leaking - ugh!
fast forward - replacement sourced Eric / Planetman at High Performance Auto, i have installed it and turned and set idle over this past weekend; today i go to take a spin around the block and it will hardly start; appears to have spark to all 4, but only gas to 1 and 3, as when i disconnect 2 and 4 it runs the same, when i swap around leads ( 1 and 3 dc, 2 and 4 connected) then i have crank crank and no start.
So i m reading up on trigger points i rember taking them apart and inspecting years back i cant remeber anyway i might get this running by 2022!
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The easiest way to deal with getting the trigger points adjusted is to remove the distributor to the work bench. (Don’t loosen the pinch bolt that secures the distributor timing but rather remove the two 12mm? bolts that hold the distributor flange down to the engine block. Note there are three pins in the trigger points connector. There are two sets of points, each one triggers two injectors. The center pin is common to both sets of pints. Connect an ohm meter or continuity tester to the center pin and one of the side pins. Spinning the rotor should show that the particular contact point in open approx 180 degrees and closed 180 deg. The exact dwell is not critical. Do the same test for the opposite set of points. Make note of each, remove the trigger points, from the distributor, and carefully tweak the static side of each set of points to either increase or decrease the dwell. I can tell you that, if anything, the points have closed up over time due to the lobe followers wearing down. Also don’t be afraid to clean up the points with a few swipes with fine sandpaper. Trigger point dwell adjustment is trial and error. Once you get both of them to show a dwell of anything “near” 180 deg that should be fine. Put it back together.
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thanks Chris,
i did not dig that far as i realised that i was running on 3 cylinders; so i stepped back and put my diagnose hat on instead of throwing more parts & money at it:
1. i tested each wire down to the spark plug for spark, i found an intermittent spark on #2, so i replaced wire, i start and still running on 3 cyls
inders
2. pulling distro lead off, i crank a few times to prime cylinders, i pull plugs, 1, 3, 4 anre wet, 2 is dry
3. i pull injectors and rail and crank, gas shoots from 1 3 & 3, not 2
4. check & clean electrical connection to #2, still nothing
5. pull out #2 injector & bench test, it does not click, i test my hooptey 3v tester on VP garbage injector, it clicks
6. connect vp injector to rail and crank, i have gas now - CPU & electerical connector & trigger points are good!
so i was tempted to put back together like this, 1 vp and 3 orig injectors, BUT then i remebers that the VP inj only work at 18 lbs, i m currently set at 31 lbs so this will result in gas dumping into the crank case - this issue i had before
results - I need rebuilt inj - if anyone has any leads i woud appreciate it,
thanks R!
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Sounds like you’re making progress in the right direction.
I had some success in freeing up a couple stuck injectors by turning them upside down, clamping a 6” length of hose to the pintel end of the injector, filling the hose with carb cleaner and letting it soak backwards through the injector for a day. Then I made sure the hose was full and rigged an air compressor hose to it so that I could apply about 30 psi to it while hitting the injector with electrical current - tap, tap, tap with the electrical charge to simulate a running engine. This will back-flush the filter inside the injector. Don’t clamp the hose to the pintel cap as it might blow off when pressurized. Clamp it just above the cap. At the time I thought the injectors normally operated on a 12v signal so I used a jump lead from the car battery. I was subsequently informed that the injectors normally open via a 5v signal so I guess I was lucky that I didn’t fry any injectors. But hey, it worked. I captured the fluid that flushed through the injectors and saw some sediment in it.
I chose to remove the Pinter caps during the cleaning process as I didn’t want to force any crud, that might be residing within the cap, back through the injector. Also you might find that 3v isn’t enough juice to unfreeze the pintel. I wouldn’t have any hesitation applying 6v.
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Chris;
I like your inverter solvent pintle soak/flush!
...and I think your Injector test method with the see-through tubing is quite brilliant for its simplicity, effectiveness and safety, and I have added it to my D-Jet page (I did request permission to repost, but I don't believe I heard back from you on it...yet!), I must speak out against the electrical insult you are subjecting applying ANY non-current limited voltage to Injectors.
We agree there is a high possibility that Injectors will be damaged by applying 12V...but do not apply ANY voltage over 3V without current limiting!! By applying 12V by way of a 6 Ohm current limiting resistor as in normal operation, thereby the resistor acts to limit the current and it also works as a Dropping Resistor, allowing only about 3V to be applied to the Injector, as well as shaping the inrush current....
See also: https://www.sw-em.com/bosch_d-jetronic_injection.htm#Dynamic_and_Static_Injector_Test_Notes
Cheers
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Permission granted.
Yeah, when it come to electronics I’m qualified to install flashlight batteries and that’s about it. Well maybe I’m a “decent” solderer and shrink sleever lol.
“… as well as shaping the inrush current...”
Are you saying it slightly curves or “ramps” an otherwise square electrical hit that I was causing with my tap, tap, tap method?
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Chris;
Yes, the shape of the current waveform is gentler with a series limiting R...this has been carefully considered by Bosch for how it affect fuel delivery during normal operation (see P Anders website for waveforms), but obviously wont make much difference while simply exercising the Injector for purposes of cleaning.
...and Tnx for permission!
Cheers
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hello All,
sourced replacement inj from MR Planetman and we are still firing on 3 cylinders, now its cyl #1; electrical connector wont stay put, is there no end to this sigh!
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hello to All,
so after month of waiting to get injectors rebuilt, these are the 50 year old ones as the new ones from VP accord theshop are complete garbage, wont spray and resistance is inconsistent.
So car is back together anf FPR is leaking like crazy, real fire waiting to happen, luckily thanks to Planetman, i have new to put on tomorrow - we had plumbing emergency today -ugh!
more to follow - thanks all for help so far!
R
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Off the wall comment. Fuel pressure setting should be 31psi. Volvo raised it from 30psi. Pressure at he injectors should be 31psi constant. Excess fuel returns to tank, or should do. Any chance that the return pipe has become restricted?
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Forum;
Blockage of Fuel Return Line from FPReg will cause Fuel Rail Pressure to soar as FPReg has no way to dump excess, and unneeded fuel back to tank. Fuel Pump is dumb and will keep on pumping into effectively a (partial) deadhead, until it's internal bypass opens...but Fuel Rail Pressure will be way high (and not at the fault of FPReg!).
Good Hunting!
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Rob, I see from your other thread from last fall your throttle stop is likely out of adjustment.
Here’s a detailed method how to set the throttle stop.
https://vcoa.org/forum/9-P1800-1800S-1800EES/98-Setting-idle-on-a-B20F-D-Jetronic-FI-system
BTW, best we keep our current conversation to this current thread, rather than posting to the one from last fall.
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Good question Derek, Rob disconnect the return line from the FPR and blow through it, any resistance? If that line is blocked pressure will go too high and could cause the FPR to leak.
Also some other questions.
Have you done a compression test? Poor compression can lead to overfueling.
Have you tested the coolant temperature sensor with an ohm meter?
Check and clean the grounds where a number of FI wires attach to the intake manifold.
Very high idle is false air , you mentioned previously that the injector seals you received with the new injectors from VP were “no good “. What do you mean by no good? AFAIK the injectors sold by VP are the Beck Arnley ones , I use those too. Unlikely they are bad when new.
Is the gas tank clean and gas reasonably fresh? Sediment in the gas could cause an injector to malfunction.
Try snugging up the intake manifold nuts where it attaches to the head, not overly tight, just to make sure they’re not loose.
Have you done a vacuum test on the MPS?
Please check these one at a time and report back.
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greetings!
i have performed all of these checks - compression numbers are within spec checked grounds , vacuum lines blew thru to the tank, its clear with that lie being connected to FPR return. Gas is ethanol free with stabil added last refill was aprox 3 weeknds ago.
i do not know how to check i have correct injectors from VP, the carton markings are
61674, german for fuel injector and vp-autoparts.com; i can call them up but they will just tell me i have the right thing
i note accompanying seals were crap
i see these cross reference from research:
https://www.yoyopart.com/oem/7093374/volvo-461674.html
Cross Interchange Parts
Factory Number
WELLS M419
AIRTEX 4G1443
BOSCH 0 280 150 036
STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS FJ118
GB Remanufacturing 852-13106
STANDARD MOTOR FJ118
i did buy something off ebay for $40 each that wouldnt fire at 3v, they fre at 12v, i returned for refund.
So i just got it to start, runs fast and FPR is leaking; i am trying to find a solution that will give 17-18 lbs to the rails
Thanks All!
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And change the oil too, you don’t want gas in the oil, will cause premature wear to the engine.
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Where to start?
Download a copy of the Volvo D jet trouble shooting manual. You should read through all of it; but, a good place to start is with the procedure for setting the idle speed and the throttle switch (throttle stop screw). The throttle stop screw is not used to set idle speed. The stop screw and throttle switch have to be set exactly as described in the manual for the engine to idle with a steady speed.
If you broke the connections to the temperature sensor near the thermostat I assume the two hoses that you have been fiddling with are the auxiliary air regulator connection hoses. If the aux air regulator doesn't work and has been blanked off then the hoses don't really matter unless you plan to replace or rebuild the aux air regulator. With no aux air regulator you need to cap off the two ports on the intake manifold that connect to the regulator. The two ports are just under the manifold directly below the throttle plate. If those two ports are not blocked off then you have unrestricted air flow into the manifold which will cause a really high idle speedd. With the two ports blocked off you can set hot idle speed using the idle speed setting screw. When the engine is cold this will not admit enough air to keep the engine running so you you will have to press down on the gas peddle just a little bit to keep the engine running until it is warm. The only alternative to this is repair the aux air regulator or find a used one that works.
I don't understand the reference to the crankcase hose going before the butterfly. The PCV hose from the oil filler cap goes to the restricted nipple on the intake manifold as shown in this photo
https://www.swedespeed.com/threads/what-another-142-project-car.201780/post-5163041
The hose from the oil separator on the side of the engine block typically feeds into the bottom of the air filter housing (if you have a stock air filter).
I don't know anything about the injectors that you received from VP Auto. I do know that the Beck Arnley 158-0438 injectors are exact fit drop in replacements for the OEM Bosch 280-150-036 injectors. I use the Becks and there are now a number of 1800E owners running them without issue. With the Beck injectors if you set your fuel rail pressure to 30 psi the D jet system will operate as intended. With your mystery injectors and low fuel pressure you are kind of off in no-mans land. If you don't want to fork over the roughly $65 for each new Beck injector, send one of your injectors to a fuel injector testing service to get the flow measured. At 43.5 psi the Bosch will flow around 580 ml/min. If your replacement injectors are close to that then the engine should work with a rail pressure of 30 psi.
You can find parts or acceptable substitutes if you look hard enough. Some parts have a very nasty cost. However, I don't think you can find new auxiliary air valves; but, there is somebody offering a rebuild service. Your best starting place for parts is Eric / Planetman at High Performance Auto
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thanks so much, yes i have the download from Ron K;
i figured out my aux air valve doesnt really work; i was able to block off ports and upon light closing in i got her to start, albeit running really fast so i think i m nearly there; i think i am going to pull one of the injectors and send to lab test as i do have high crank level again ie gas in diluting oil and over the high mark on stick. i want to change the oil as i am not sure what kind of damage this mixture does, i dont have any oil leaks and i dont want it starting now lol
thanks so much!
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