I own an 85 760 Turbo. I love the car, especially the extra "boost" but handling isn't exactly the greatest. And I have been noticing some small disfunctions and wear and tear signs. So latley I have been thinking about a VW again. I've been thinking about picking up a GLi Jetta, unless someone can talk me out of it. My girlfriend has tried, but she has no case, she thinks all my ideas are bad.

I think I will miss this site more than the car!

What year GLI are thinking about?

I bought a 1988 GLI 16 valve new. I'm guessing you are probably thinking about something newer. But here is my take. The car was an absolute blast to drive! I drove it for 280K until it was totaled. Then I bought the 240 as a car for a year or two. May keep it longer...They are like comparing apples and oranges. A 240/740 will (w/o major mods) never be as nimble or have the throttle response a GLI has. But it will outlast a VW. Jetta - Great engine, original at 280k and always ran well. Suspension better than an older Volvo. Didn't replace anything other than shocks until over 200K. Grreat brakes too, long lasting. Fabulous Recaro seats!!! BUT - I think I replaced everything else in the car at least once during the time I owned it!

IMO - If you keep a VW for the long term yuo'll end up spending A LOT more money on repairs than with a rear wheel drive Volvo!!!!

Short take - VW is more fun for the short term,

Volvo is better built and more comfortable.

Hon', I've owned 2 VW's in my lifetime and although I love their handling and peppines. Overall they tend to generate many electrical problems. My 89'Golf ran excellent for most of it's life, except around 130,000 I began to experience alot of problems. I would definetly say that, even though I have extreme VW-love, the Volvo's are a much better built car and far, far more reliable. Also, old boyfriend had a Jetta GLI 93'-low miles. He used up all the tows on my AAA Card, needless to say the car was a piece of #$@%. If you do decide on a VW, their basic 8 valve 4cyl was a more successfull engine than the others. Good Luck. If you want some more detailed VW horrorstories, email me and I'd be happy to tell the tales. Happy Halloween-Lauren

Yeah, I've quite a few Vee Dubs as well. The list goes like this. 76 Scirocco, 88 16v GTi and an 81 Rabbit with a General Lee paint job, 01 orange and all. The Scirocco was the best, albeit the slowest of the bunch. But my GTi never gave me any real problems. And I was under the impression that Volvo electrics are more notorious than VW, I'm still considering the switch. If I do switch I will miss the power and reliability. The 760 can pull a hill like no other VW!

Being an avowed Volvo owner and Germanphile, I could still say with a good conscience, to avoid anything but Mercedes out of Germany. Even then, you're paying too much for what you get, at least in the US market. VW's are okay, but they have a certain, "made for sale but not long-term durability" feel. They're fun for a while, but then they just start to seem junky and thin. They also attract stereo thefts like you can't believe. If you do go down that route, get the nice factory deck no matter how much it annoys you to pay all that money for it - you'll save the extra money in the long run.

If I were you I8would put some money into the suspension of your Volvo, or buy another newer one and spend some extra cash on suspension. You'll never get it to seem as snappy as a new VW without significant effort and $$$; don't delude yourself. Its easy to get sick of your Volvo - they last forever, and are thick in places. But that's their beauty, they last forever, and are thick in places. They are (or were) straighforward examples of good engineering, not marketing like most cars.

Also keep auto ownership in perspective, arguably the most dangerous thing most people do in the industrialized world is drive their cars - you'll walk out of pretty much any wreck if strapped into most Volvos; no such guarantee with the VW or anything else, except for maybe a big Merc.

IMHO.

Saftey is actually quite a concern, but living in Northern Colorado and hitting the slopes quite often, Rear Wheel drive and big might not cut it this winter as a nimble FWD Jetta or GTi. And on the subject of cost, a distributor for a VW is twice as cheap as that of my 760. Not to mention the costly rubber turbo hoses and the cost of turbo replacement runs pretty high too if I'm right.

On all but the handling stakes the VW will be a step back. You may be better off with a Subaru Legacy (NOT the Outback): excellent reliability, longevity closer to RWD Volvos, all wheel drive sticks to the road, sharp handling, reasonable interior space, good crash performance. Part prices higher than RWD Volvo's but not often needed.

George Antony

Oh, absolutley I would love to own a Subie, especially a Legacy, but they don't come cheap. Especially since I would have to buy a new car. I'm kinda hoping that whatever I sell the Volvo for, I could turn around and spend it on another car.

I'd sooner get an audi than a VW (duh) but if

couldn't or didn't want to waste the money on

the audi, I too would rather get a sub than a VW.

That said, all the older subarus that I've

ever seen seem to be made out of poorly painted

rust. Fantastic cars, though.

chris

I had a 1978 Scirocco S with a full Neuspeed suspension, techtonics exhaust and the 10.1 big brake kit. I also had a 89 16V GTI. I also had 3 Karmann Ghias and 5 various VW bugs. I now have a 94 945tic with IPD sways Bilsteins, Ramair V and other mods. This car amazes me every day I drive it and it is a Wagon. I love my Volvo and will never buy another VW.

If you really want a performance Volvo with space for your friends buy a 89(no wiring problems) or later 744 tic with a turbo plus(if it comes with the car). Change the exhaust and get some better shocks with IPD sways. You will be glad you made that choice. I traded in my 89 744tic(m46) with turbo plus-Black on Black leather with the only modification being a 2.5 cat back system. I regret doing that, but we had a baby and my wife didn't want me driving a stick shift. This car flew. I used to blow by VW's, Honda's and also I raced an occasional Acura v6. I once kept up with a chevy 327 El Camino(stock)of the line. They couldn't believe I was keeping up with them and sometimes leaving them in the dust. Try it out you might like it. Volvo's can be built to blow away the competion in handling if that is what you are looking for. They are more comfortable and have tons of room. Just my experience.

Sounds convincing. Some of the advice I was looking for. I would like to go wagon but they seem so big, they look better than the sedans. 744 Tic, I will consider test driving one. I've been looking at 190e's as well by Mercedes. But I have only test driven a few VW's as of yet. I'll go check to see if I can't find a sweet swede.

I like the 90 MUCH better than my 87 760. I think I would like a 94 or whatever the last 9xx turbo was even better, but my 90 is almost set up where I want it (except for the hybrid t3 turbo, stonkin' big intercooler, bigger injectors, NOS, high stall torque converter, 4.11 L/S rear end, and tubbed). Oh hell....get the Passat AWD when it comes out with the W8....

Get IPD sway bars and good shocks and you'll have great handling. I know this from personal experience.

Carey -- I've been having similar thoughts lately. I've got an '81 245, an '83 245, and an '87 244. I'll be getting a new car in the next several years (when my sons' college tuition payments will be completed), and the idea of driving a Golf TDI is very appealing. I think in the next several years our driving habits are going to be undergoing a fundamental change, and getting 45 mpg will be a significant advantage. I've always been a VW person -- several Beetles, two Rabbits, one Dasher, two of which were diesels. I got into the Volvos when my sons were becoming of driving age. I wanted them safe. I continue to drive VWs from time to time -- my inlaws have a new Jetta TDI, but now that I'm a Volvo person, I'm astounded with how tinny the VWs are compared to the Volvo 240 tanks. To drive a VW, I'd be entrusting myself to the airbags; I don't think the sheet metal and framework are going to help out all that much in a collision. Furthermore, forget home maintenance. Maybe brake pads and oil changes, but that's about it. However, the same may be true with contemporary Volvos as well...

I agree profoundly with several other submissions that you're comparing apples and oranges -- you need to drive an 800 or S/V70 if you're thinking of a mid/late-90's Jetta for a fair comparison. What you're talking about is akin to comparing your 85 760 with an early 70's VW Squareback.

Rob

Carey:

First have a chat with a real good Volvo mechanic. Ask how much it will cost to put your car back in perfect condition, then compare that with the cost of a (new?) VW.

As others have mentionned IPD should be able to help with the handling. Also have a look at whether your tires are real good.

Best,

R

The post below prompted me to actually look up farfugnugen. It means "repeatedly bumping the head while exclaiming how good it feels".

Und zo, mein friend, rrrrememberrr, ve haff vays to make you talk...do NOT force ussss to uuuussse unpleasant mayzhurs..ze papers, plizzz. Ve vant youuuu should znuggle uppp mit owr dowdy hausfrau, und forrrrget ze Svedisher girlie ski team, ja? Folks-vagen, ze pippples car frummm nationallensocialismo, ja, und vy vud you t'ink dat ze democratischer socialismo sweedies isss better, ja? nein! Ve vill gladly zell you a wee-wubba-you effry 5 jahren...orrrr, you shmarty-boy can buy oooonly eine wolwo vut lasting 10-15-20 yar, ja? Du vants shorty qvicky-time, orrr du vant long-slowww time, G.I.? Chermun, orrr sweedy? Forrrm, or shubshtance?

My dad bought a '96 Golf GL 2.0 5-speed new, and has hardly put anything into it. The normal wear stuff has worn out (tires, brakes, belts, hoses, filters, still has original but worn out exhaust), but nothing major has broken and the car has always run reasonably well during the 85K miles it now has. Gets 26mpg no matter how hard he drives it (up to 32mpg at steady low speed highway driving). With a totally stock suspension on the Golf, the handling isn't too bad, and not far off from my modified 240. With some H&R coilovers, front/rear strut bars, 25mm/28mm sway bars, and some good tires on 15" wheels, it would out handle my 240. The Golf also does 125mph with no engine mods.

What year Jetta are you considering? A late MkIII 2.0 ('96-'98) probably won't cost too much to buy and maintain if the mileage is low. The VR6 is a sweet engine, but I'd be concerned about longevity (headgasket), and watch out for the 2nd gear crunch on the VR6 manual trans. My mom had a '93 Passat VR6 5-spd that was pretty good, but the car felt worn out at only 80K. It was replaced with a '00 Jetta VR6 5-spd just a few months ago, so I can't say much about it yet (I've never even driven it). Overall, the MkIII and later VW's are generally good cars, but they will wear out sooner than a Volvo in many cases. If you're looking at newer VW's, the 1.8T is a really nice engine, and would be my choice ahead of the VR6/V6.

I just read a post at vwVortex.com today where someone posted some pictures of his odometer at 200,000 miles. Most of the people who responded were surprised at the mileage, asking how the car was doing at 200K. That's a major difference between a RWD Volvo and a VW, 200K in a Volvo isn't surprising, nor is it rare. If you don't want to fix and upgrade the Volvo, then VW isn't a bad choice, however, you should be able to make your car handle well with IPD sway bars, bilstein shocks, a strut tower brace, and improved tires/wheels. I know I'd have a hard time giving up a Volvo turbo for any VW (except maybe a Corrado). 10-11psi and a 2.5" exhaust would be a nice improvement too if you're running stock boost/exhaust.

Good luck.

If you don't have iPd sway bars, then there's a part of the fault. Stock just wasn't tuned for handling.

Bushing wear can is a factor too. One that's worn, torn, cracked, and slacked won't do it's job.

Tires also make a big difference. All-season tires, even lower profile, still have softer sidewalls than performance tires. Their tendency to roll under cornering will make it feel sloppy.

New VW's aren't bad, but I still doubt their long term durability. Most that are a few years old ones don't look too stellar. And as others have pointed out, maintenance cost is high on 'em.

If you are going the new car route, and one with good handling, you may seriously want to consider the Hyundai Elantra GT. At $14k, it's one of the best new car bargains IMHO.

-- Kane ... not that I'd get it. I have a preference to station wagons that will at least accomodate a standard twin size mattress, so.

If you're comparing the same year--an 85 Jetta--then you'd be silly.

A newer one, sure. But then a newer anything would probably be better in many respects. You have to compare apples to apples to get a solution based only on the car, not the model year also.

"Small disfunctions and wear and tear signs..." in a SIXTEEN year old car, and you're COMPLAINING?!?!? BOO-HOO!!! Kids born the same year as your car are old enough to DRIVE your car!

Give your poor Volvo some credit and go out and look at a VW of similar vintage! (Although I attribute the poor condition of most VW's I see more to owner habits...) As far as handling: go to your library and look for reviews of VW's: EVERY one shows them lifting the inside rear tire in a turn, without fail, review after review... (something I point out to annoy my friend....)

I'm not one to talk anyone out of leaving the Volvo fold though, I'm content to see you go! Every little bit helps lower the resale value so I can buy more of them!

-Paul Demeo

I'd say that VWs are generally more nimble and manueverable, but remember that the 700 series is a signficantly larger car than a Jetta. VWs also have great steering feel, but Volvos are certainly quite good. In terms of handling (stability, balance, body lean, roadholding), Volvos really give up nothing to VWs.

VW engines are very different; the engine in my wife's '90 Jetta is a screamer compared to the low-revving torquer in the 740. (The Jetta has a close-ratio five-speed; 80 mph = 4000 rpm, but it loves to run, at 100 mph it's rock-steady.)

With a VW you will give up a measure of elbow room (important to a 46 Tall like myself), sound deadening, ride (shorter wheelbase), a degree of build quality/engineering and rear-drive (if that's as important to you as it is to me). Advantages of a VW are easier-to-find manual transmissions and front-drive (if that's your preference). They are generally equal to Volvos for usable interior space and trunk space. Fuel economy is not much better with a gas Jetta.

However - in my experience, VW servicing costs are higher (yes, you read that right), and of course, durability is not generally as good, although 200,000 miles is not out of the question with a VW.

We've had the VW five years; if we could do it over again, we'd buy a Volvo. My wife drives the Volvo whenever she gets the chance, and it's not because she doesn't like the 5-speed in the VW.

Your girlfriend is right. I wouldn't buy a VW... Very Hip? Yes. Great? No. My brother and parents have always driven VWs among other things, and frankly I'm not too impressed. Just for kicks tho, before I bought my volvo I took VWs out and was still not impressed. Especially if you plan on repairing it... they are a pain in the *hem*... ;) My 240 on the other hand... pure joy to work on.

my $0.02

take care... happy driving.

Aaron. :)

I had to smile when I read your assessment of working on VWs; I tend to agree, but my neighbour across the street, who is a heavy-truck mechanic (shop foreman for a trucking company), enjoys working on the VWs owned by himself, his daughter, and her boyfriend. Go figure!

He's driven my 740 though, and he's thinking about a 740/940 for his wife. We may change his thinking yet!

Indeed... just the very thought of TWO carbs on one engine makes me think some Germen Engineer was smoking pot. They'll last a long time... my brother's Rabbit is around 230k and Dad's 183k... but not without way more repairs than my brick.

Aaron. :)

Somewhere, a Volvo 122s (with dual carbs) weeps quietly to itself, having been forgotten and lumped in with the veedubs.... *sniff*

:)

-Paul Demeo

1990 780T

(1964 122s, RIP)

VW handling is nothing to write home about, per the reviews. Take a look at Audi, which is both pricier and better-handling, or BMW.

That having been said, my next car is going to be a ultra-economy diesel, as I am sick of funding Arabs. I just hope Volvo imports their Euro diesels to the US.

Yea Steve! My sentiments exactly. I too am sick of funding the Arabs. If only our Gummit would think the same. The policies seem to be anti-American and the only way we can change that is to let our Congresscritters know. I'm thinking about a Passat.

Agreed. I drove a passat wagon TDI, 5 spped stick, while I was in England last year for a scientific conference. What a great set up. Fast, quiet, efficient and overall fun to drive. I too wish we had them here, the TDI bug etc are too small, even the passat is not nearly as roomy as the 700/900 wagons, which fill up quickly. I am just green, no anti-anyone sentiments. I more prone to blame ourselves for the problems, not the suppliers.

Anyway, lets hope we can get som eof the new diesels soon.

Chip

Many reliable sources say that most major European and Japanese automakers are getting their respective diesel models ready for US importation in '03 or '04.

Diesel fuel has different formulation in the US than elsewhere. Given the shady history and low sales of diesel models in the past, foreign automakers did not want to dump capital into making special engines that would be compatible with diesel fuel sold in the US.

But new standards for US fuel are set to go live in 2003. This would make US fuel compatible with existing fuel worldwide and simplify importation of existing models onto US soil.

If I had $20k, I'd go buy a TDI Jetta wagon the moment they show up. But I'll have more choices if I wait until 2003.

I'm with you, Evan...

I used to drive VW diesels -- Rabbit and Dasher -- and the idea of getting 45/50 mpg is suddenly appealing once again. My sons' college tuitions will be done in 3-1/2 years, and I'll be in a position to purchase a new car. I've been looking at VW TDIs. I drove my inlaws' new Jetta TDI this summer a bit. One problem -- VW's are *so* tinny. I guess I've gotten accustomed to the armor of my three 240s. To return to the VW fold, I'd be entrusting myself to the airbags, I'm afraid.

Rob

a VW is not the answer, have you checked IPD for handling upgrades. Ive heard the 700 series does handle better, i am contemplating switching over from the 200 series. VW are nothing more than german hondas.