OK following the last couple posts a few days ago.

I would like to tackle one problem at a time. Putting aside the fact that the starter refuses to turn when wired directly to another running car, I would like to tackle the following problem:

The small starter wire (blue yellow as I recall) provides +12v with KEY in position II (before actually cranking). This is an obvious issue.

Here is some history: I had installed 6 months ago a remote starter. The job was neat and clean and has worked perfectly. The car has no history of starter/starting issues before or after that mod. Everything otherwise is original and unbutchered.

Firstly I suspected the remote starter relay box to have a relay stuck. I pulled the harness off the box and measure the voltage at connection 50 upstream at the ignition switch, key position II and STILL get +12v at the ignition switch. Haynes diagram shows also connection 50 as the starter signal which confirms my wiring and test.
Hence, no issues with remote starter relay box.

Why does the ignition switch give +12v to starter with key position II? (BTW also maintains +12v in position III) Putting aside the possibility of the switch being defective for now, I would like to make some easier tests first. I noticed that haynes shows the signal also going to the "control unit" (BL/Y).
- Is this referring to the 561 (which I have) or to the other unit (against the firewall beside the audio amp - what is that anyway?).
- Is it possible for the control unit to be feeding back the +12v? computers are original on this car.
- How do I remove the harness connector on the 561? Top screw off first?
(I'd like to remove it to isolate only the ignition switch with battery circuit to confirm what the cause is...)

BTW throughout these tests the wire was pulled off the starter solenoid.

Any other thoughts? I feel like I am losing it, this car has beem running perfect for +100K and 3 years now.


Thanks in advance,
Greg Mustang
Montreal
Canada

Before taking apart the ignition switch to figure out shy I get +12v at the starter wire, I decided to compare to that on my 940 (ok different but same functionality right?)

On my 940 '92, key in position II, I ALSO get +12v at the small wire at the starter solenoid.

Are volvos different in this design from other cars?

On my 940 '92, key in position II, I ALSO get +12v at the small wire at the starter solenoid.

I can't explain it but I just tried it on my 940 -- and also got +12V at the solenoid wire. BUT ONLY when it was disconnected.

As I reconnected it, I could hear a relay click up on the driver's side firewall, inside. Somehow that Key On II +12V gets to and thru? an ungrounded relay coil and floats around till it finds a ground path -- in this case the B/Y wire to the 1.0 ohm solenoid coil. How it finds its way to the B/Y starter wire I can't say, even with the green book diagrams.

My meter shows NO +12V with the wire partly connected -- and the mystery relay's ground search satisfied. I'd like to track that relay down, if that's what it is. But it would take a helper, and digging into and under the 940 dash area doesn't appeal much to me anyhow.

IMO, it's a misleading back-circuit and not relevant to your starter problem.

P.S. to johnwr -- meter neg on battery neg, probing with insulated plus lead, touching nothing else.

--
Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current) — 240s (one V8) — 140s — 122s — since '63.

IMO, it's a misleading back-circuit and not relevant to your starter problem.

My book only shows the ECU connection.

But I see John's point. He suggests using a test light instead of a meter.

One of the pitfalls of using a meter to trace a circuit stems from the high sensitivity of a voltmeter these days. The old trick of inserting a voltmeter between battery post and cable to find the "drain" easily fails with DMMs and solid state equipment with trickle-rate keep alive draws.

Try this (what I think John was getting at), connect one end of your high tension coil wire to +12, and measure what you get at the other end, first with a meter, then a test light. Opposite results.

If the ECU imparts a slight current (back-circuit) you could not, with a meter measuring voltage, distinguish it from a dead short to battery (like if the remote starter relay welded closed) where the current drawn by a test lamp would give you much more information.

So the next question is what killed the starter? The remote unit go crazy?

--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

Thanks, your description can make sense, and a third car like this would tell me I have no problem... pending me checking again with connector connected to the starter.

Time to tackle a new starter.

Greg

notice when you hold meter probe tip and touch battery positive with other hand you also get +12. use a test light.

That is a good point, but I had the probe i nthe connector, I only touched the ground.

John,
I sent you an email, can you help me out on this?

Greg

The small starter wire (blue yellow as I recall) provides +12v with KEY in position II (before actually cranking). This is an obvious issue.

Is this with the b/y wire connected or not? If connected, it might actually be coming from inside the (inop) starter.

As for the ECU connection, I think the ECU wants/needs to know when there's cranking going on -- possibly to alter injector pulse timing for the slow revs or something.

I can't see any plausible source for +12V on that wire if it's disconnected.
--
Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current) — 240s (one V8) — 140s — 122s — since '63.

Yes it's with the starter wire (B/Y) disconnected at the solenoid, hence not coming from that.

As I said I also measured it directly at the ignition switch wire (50 - solid blue) and get +12v at position II.
Would you agree that the cause must be the ignition switch routing the voltage to that terminal in the wrong position? Must be but I hesitate since I never here of these switches going bad...

Let me know your thoughts, appreciate it.

Greg

for safety reasons many car have no crank safety systems attached to the clutch (it must be depressed to crank) or to the auto transmission (it must be in park) failure of theses switches leads to no crank. make sure this is not the case. Also are you sure your starter is good, do you know how to bypass the solenoid with a screwdriver? this is where I start as it is easy to diagnose and hopefully the main wiring is intact. p.s. always include the year and manual or slushbox in your posts as this makes answers more likely and succinct.
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Patrick, '68 220, '83 245, '92 Eurovan (work truck).

Salut Patrick,

C'est une 240 89 auto 290 kilos.

Oui d'apres moi le starter est bruler, meme ci je le frappe il part pas - je l'ai connecte directement sur la batterie d'une autre voiture et je connais bien la fonctionalite du solenoid et relay interne.

Mon probleme que j'aimerais verifier avant de changer le starter est que le fil "starter" qui va du ignition switch au solenoid (petit fil 12v) me donne 12v avec la clef position II (avant crank). Je pense que c'etait ca qui a fait endommager le starter lui meme. Alors it reste a regler ca avant de replacer le starter.

Presentement, je pense que la cause est le ignition switch...

A tu une replacement a me vendre? Si non je va au scrap local.

Merci!
Greg - Montreal

without having the car in front of me it's hard to do this. Basically if youy understand the way a starter works you can bypass all the wiring, apply current to the windings of the solenoide and the starter will turn. how you can diagnose a blown starter at the same time as a possibly blown ign key switch is by separating the two sysytems.

without having the car in front of me it

Greg, I'm reading this whole thread carefully. I'm waiting for the fix so I can keep it in mind. I have no idea.

You threw me off when I read the last post of yours. I was searching my computer for the Language Mode. I thought I hit the French mode by accident. :)
--
'75 Jeep CJ5 345Hp ChevyPwrd, two motorcycles, '85 Pickup: The '89 Volvo is the newest vehicle I own. it wasn't Volvos safety , it was Longevity that sold me