Sal: pretty even-handed response, I'd say. Many of those indy techs you speak of probably started out at a dealer, did the work, got the training and experience, saw what was going on in terms of attitude, approach, etc., and took steps to present a better service 'package' to the public. The 2 best mechs I know in the DC area fit that description exactly. They get their OEM parts from the local dealers. They also did not burn bridges behind themselves when they left, and get good updates from the parts guys. I would be VERY surprised if any dealers read this site; I would drop into a dead faint if any dealers DID visit this site, got the gist of the 'dealer rips me off/pisses me off' attitude so prevalent, and then actuall would take steps to improve their attitude, etc., BECAUSE of what they read about themselves here. The good techs at a dealer are to be valued; the high percentage of folks who still take their cars to dealers NEED good techs: IF managemenbt is screwing the customer, at least they shopuld be competent work done for the money that have to shell out. Next chapter?.....--PD.